RBPB4 [SPOILERS] - De Gaulle of the Egyptians

[Lord Parkin]

Yay for the pigs!

Indeed!

A few comments:

Yes, that plains hill tile is pretty meh food wise. But the entire map looks that way...Maybe there's some sea food up there? The incentive for furs wasn't the happiness bonus, commerce would be a large increase to the current beaker output. Just sth to consider so I brought it up.

Okay, fair enough. Furs do give a decent amount of commerce. We do have a better option food-wise now with the Pig though. Let's just hope that we find something useful nearby to it. Otherwise, I guess the Furs might be worth considering, depending on where Horses pop up in a turn or two.

Also, how about switching to a warrior before you finish that worker? With Joe exploring SW and east unexplored, the situation feels a bit risky. You also have to know where to road to get the horse, maybe it won't be around. Of course, I can't tell how much time it takes to finish warrior/worker so again it's just another option to consider.

Finishing the Worker earlier lets us hook up the Cow and start on roads earlier though. I think that's enough reason to keep building it. Maybe - just maybe - it could be worth switching to the Warrior if we get to AH and don't see any Horses. But even then I'm not sure.

Strategically, are you really strongly set on Stonehenge? The alternative is to focus more on early expansion.

Yeah, we've already had the expansion vs Stonehenge debate a few times. We're kind of locked into Stonehenge now that we have an agreement with luddite though (if we don't build it then we've just denied ourselves two wonders in one swoop).

There's also the issue of great prophet pollution, the alternative is the usual GS asap from a city outside the capital with capital cottaged earlier.

I don't really view Great Prophets as "pollution". They're incredibly useful early on in the game, and give a large boost to the reciever. Of course, we definitely do still want a Great Scientist at some point to build an early Academy in the capital. But we can take care of that later.

If you delay/skip SH you can get other supporting cites earlier which will enable the capital to build cottages sooner.

I don't see the logic here. Getting more cities out earlier will decrease your tech rate (at least initially), as well as make your Workers more busy. Pottery is the only bottleneck to cottages, and we'll actually get to it faster without city-spamming early on.

Luddite indeed may have tricked you with SH and got a free chance on the Oracle.

Right, but that only emphasizes even more that we need to go for Stonehenge or lose out on two wonders. Besides, it's not really a bad situation - Stonehenge does a lot for us with +1 happiness, +2 priest slot Obelisks in every city... it's why we were keen on the wonder in the first place! Whether or not luddite tricked us is thus a bit irrelevant at this point - we just need to concentrate on doing what's best for us now, and I think that giving up Stonehenge is definitely not it.

That furs tile could go along the lines of getting that wonder, giving the needed beaker boost.

What, the Oracle? We can't really go for that at this point, as it'd seriously deteriorate our relations with luddite to break our word.

Oh, I hope you don't mind me charging in with comments like this. It's just that I've been playing SGOTM for months, had a nice break from civ and then clearly abstinence crisis kicked in!

No worries! Feel free to comment all you want.

A question about the settings, why is there a 127 turns limit set for the game?

That's just a Civstats quirk. The actual turn limit for the game is 999 turns (and I'm not sure why that needed to be set anyway - that's a Sunrise quirk, I think).

[Lord Parkin]

Okay, some thoughts on this message from luddite now.

Dear Lord Parkin,

Now that I've explored the map a little more, I wanted to you about how we're going to settle it in the future. It looks as though I have a solid sea border to my west, and I assume that you have the same on your east. Both of us have an inland sea below us.

I'm not quite sure how he can assume from the info he has that we have a solid sea border to our east. That's just speculation, I think. And how does he know about what's below us? Maybe his Warrior's exploring down there or something. Either way, interesting to know.

To me, the fairest way to divide up the terrain seems to be that we'll each settle around our own sea. Unfortunately, that does make the strip of land in the middle a bit awkward. No reason that we can't divide that in half also, but we need to be careful to do so in a way that won't provoke any future conflicts. If we can set up a secure border with each other, it will make it much easier for us to expand southward and claim more territory from the other civs down there.

Okay, so basically a lot of text that doesn't really say anything right now. Still, seems like he has good intentions though.

My warrior has discovered a rather nice potential city cite down in the south. It has gold, and two silk resources. And you've already seen the spot we talked about earlier with corn, whale, and cows. What I'd like to propose is that I should settle near the corn (west of it, which won't claim the cows) and you settle down south to claim the gold. Then, after we've both hooked up the resources, I trade you the corn and you trade me the gold. Later we can trade the silk for anything that I have a duplicate of.

What does he mean by "south"? Presumably he must be talking south-east since he's talking about us settling it... which he wouldn't do if he knew it was closer to him. Will have to ask him for some clarification here.

Good to know there's Gold somewhere around us, although I have no idea why he thinks we'd trade our only source to him. Happiness >> health, especially when he's likely to get early Forges if he goes for Metal Casting. Maybe there'll be more than one source of Gold, in which case we can of course look at trading it to him, though I'm not sure it's particularly likely we'll get 2+ Golds.

Anyway, if it's true we have Gold nearby, then presumably he must also have at least Silver or Gems, if not his own Gold. After all, it's kind of necessary for map balance to distribute those powerful resources evenly. So maybe if he's overly enthusiastic about this idea of us trading away our only Gold, we can suggest that he checks out more of the terrain nearby him. I'd be surprised if he didn't have any strong commerce/happiness resources if we really have Gold.

Regardless, we can express that we're definitely interested in working out fair trades for resources in the future, perhaps even working out an exclusive arrangement where we always offer resources to each other first before offering them to other civs. Just a thought, anyway.

Since you're charismatic with (hopefully) stonehenge, happiness won't be as big a concern for you as it is for me. Likewise, I don't need health as much since I'm expansive, but you might have trouble with it on a map like this with few food resources or trees. And assuming I can get metal casting with the oracle, the gold will be worth 2 happiness for me. In this way, we'll both profit, and we can guarantee a peaceful border because we'll both be getting the resources that we want as long as we're at peace.

What do you think?

I think expecting a +2 happiness for -1 happiness deal is a bit optimistic. But I'll have a chat and no doubt we'll figure something out. Good to hear about this Gold that's apparently near us, anyway.

Will post the details of any agreements we make when we next get in contact.

[Lord Parkin]

Bob moved 1NW, and can see the edge of Luddite's borders now. 1SW next turn?



Joe moved 1SW, revealing what appears to be a decent chunk of land south of the Pigs. Maybe there will be a decent city site somewhere in there after all. He also spied another source of Whales... seems to be rather a lot of them around on this map. 1W onto the Pigs next turn?

[Lord Parkin]

On world news: SleepingMoogle grew to size 2 this turn, very late. Why did he wait so long? No idea. Must have improved the low-food Deer first, I guess... nothing else makes sense. Unless he had a completely different start... but then he researched Hunting first like everyone else.

We're still waiting on the following civs to grow to size 2:

- Shaka of Zulu
- Isabella of England
- Catherine of China

As mentioned before, Isabella and Catherine might have excuses (2nd Worker/Settler straight away). Shaka settled late, but even so he should really be growing by now... unless he's going for a 2nd Worker straight away too. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Yamps]

Finishing the Worker earlier lets us hook up the Cow and start on roads earlier though. I think that's enough reason to keep building it. Maybe - just maybe - it could be worth switching to the Warrior if we get to AH and don't see any Horses. But even then I'm not sure.

I'm itchy about some warrior coming from the east, walking right into the capital or at least pillaging those deers...

I don't see the logic here. Getting more cities out earlier will decrease your tech rate (at least initially), as well as make your Workers more busy. Pottery is the only bottleneck to cottages, and we'll actually get to it faster without city-spamming early on.

What I meant was that (probably) you won't build cottages in the capital after SH so fast because there will be other priorities: settlers, workers, units...With more supporting cities earlier, capital could be relieved sooner for heavy cottaging.

What, the Oracle? We can't really go for that at this point, as it'd seriously deteriorate our relations with luddite to break our word.

Yeah, telling him that you've had a change of heart probably wouldn't work so well... Anyway, there's still a matter of timing. You could gamble a bit here: Luddite won't build it and non-industrious civs won't bother. The other two are likely to assume that you want it the most so they might focus on sth else. Maybe you could get the settler for the third city before starting the wonder?

Regarding Luddite's message:

He does seem sincere with his proposals. I'm not sure what he meant by south either, maybe south from that cow tile since he specifically mentioned that he won't take it with his corn city. It's too soon though imo for those decisions, maybe there's some corn or gold east from the capital anyway. On the other hand, apparently he is coming this way so some deal could be useful.

[Lord Parkin]

I'm itchy about some warrior coming from the east, walking right into the capital or at least pillaging those deers...

Hmm, I guess. The capital tile isn't visible without declaring war though, so even if someone did happen to come by from the east, they wouldn't know whether or not I had defenders immediately available. Personally I think it'd be a bit silly of someone to declare war just to attempt a pot-shot in the early game, since that'd basically ensure themselves as an enemy for a large part of the game.

Besides, we can actually see for 3 tiles in almost every direction, so unless someone comes from exactly the right tile, we'll see them in time to build that Deer-defending Warrior anyway. And either way, we couldn't protect the Deer and the capital simultaneously if they got onto the wrong spot... but that's a risk we have to take. No sense slowing down our early expansion just because of a fear of someone we haven't even met yet (and for that matter don't know we even can meet by land). If you take no risks in Civ, you're pretty much guaranteed a middle-of-the-pack position. That's not what we're aiming for.

What I meant was that (probably) you won't build cottages in the capital after SH so fast because there will be other priorities: settlers, workers, units...With more supporting cities earlier, capital could be relieved sooner for heavy cottaging.

I still don't see the link. Yeah, the capital will want to build Settlers/Workers/units after Stonehenge. How does that stop our existing Workers from building cottages while the capital does that? They're two separate and distinct things.

Yeah, telling him that you've had a change of heart probably wouldn't work so well... Anyway, there's still a matter of timing. You could gamble a bit here: Luddite won't build it and non-industrious civs won't bother. The other two are likely to assume that you want it the most so they might focus on sth else. Maybe you could get the settler for the third city before starting the wonder?

Luddite's already told me that he intends to build it (rather than the Great Lighthouse). So I think I'll leave it to him, assuming I get Stonehenge. I'd rather have a long-term ally with the Oracle than a long-term enemy without it in our backyard.

Regarding Luddite's message:

He does seem sincere with his proposals. I'm not sure what he meant by south either, maybe south from that cow tile since he specifically mentioned that he won't take it with his corn city. It's too soon though imo for those decisions, maybe there's some corn or gold east from the capital anyway. On the other hand, apparently he is coming this way so some deal could be useful.

Yeah, I'll definitely try to chat with him to try to work out more exactly where this Gold's supposed to be, as well as potential resource deals. If this Gold's reasonably close, we could even consider settling it with our second city for a decent boost. Only thing is luddite didn't mention a food resource to go with the Gold, so it might be a crappy city. Ah well, we'll have to talk more to find out.

[Senseless]

I think Yamps' point about the cottages is this: a capital focusing on building units is going to be working deer, cow and mine tiles, not cottages. Sure, we can have our workers build cottages, but they won't be worked (and growing) in earnest until we've relaxed a bit in terms of pumping out workers and settlers.

I'm not saying I favor one approach over the other. I'm just trying to clarify what I think Yamps is saying.

[Lord Parkin]

I think Yamps' point about the cottages is this: a capital focusing on building units is going to be working deer, cow and mine tiles, not cottages. Sure, we can have our workers build cottages, but they won't be worked (and growing) in earnest until we've relaxed a bit in terms of pumping out workers and settlers.

I'm not saying I favor one approach over the other. I'm just trying to clarify what I think Yamps is saying.

Ah, right... that makes a bit more sense. Still, we'll have grown a bit while we're building Stonehenge (to at least size 4 or 5), so we'll already have more tiles to work when we start into the Worker/Settler push phase. Some of those can surely be river-cottages. We just need to slot in Pottery somewhere... either before or after Bronze Working, I guess.

[Yamps]

I still don't see the link. Yeah, the capital will want to build Settlers/Workers/units after Stonehenge. How does that stop our existing Workers from building cottages while the capital does that? They're two separate and distinct things.

Perhaps I should have said worked to clarify what I mean...I'm assuming you'll prioritize hammers/food in the capital after the SH to get the expansion going, with less priority on working the cottages immediately. (and hence building them in the first place so soon)

About the warrior, if you meet the eastern neighbor somewhere in the field they might agree to a NAP. If they come close to the capital, the temptation to cause trouble could be too big to resist...So, a more conservative alternative to consider would be to pull Joe back now, with a third warrior browsing around the capital. Hmm...If there's no horse near the pigs, the second city won't go there regardless of what Joe would see 1W, right?

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Well, in any case, very interesting game to watch.

EDIT: xpost

[Lord Parkin]

Perhaps I should have said worked to clarify what I mean...I'm assuming you'll prioritize hammers/food in the capital after the SH to get the expansion going, with less priority on working the cottages immediately. (and hence building them in the first place so soon)

Well, we'll work the Deer-Deer-Cow tiles with three citizens, no question. But any others are potentially free to work cottages. River-cottages are worth setting up early, especially given how slow the tech pace seems to be on this map.

About the warrior, if you meet the eastern neighbor somewhere in the field they might agree to a NAP. If they come close to the capital, the temptation to cause trouble could be too big to resist... So, a more conservative alternative to consider would be to pull Joe back now, with a third warrior browsing around the capital.

That's a reasonable argument. But keep in mind it's only 5 turns until we'll have the new Warrior out anyway though - pretty much the same time it'd take Joe to backtrack now. So probably not worth turning him back solely for that.

Hmm...If there's no horse near the pigs, the second city won't go there regardless of what Joe would see 1W, right?

Maybe not. But if there is indeed Gold as Luddite says (just need to figure out where), that could potentially be worth settling before Horses. It depends on how risky we think it is to delay access to the Horses - less so now that we have a NAP with our western neighbour, at least. Of course, a Gold + Horse site would be ideal, but it might be pushing our luck to expect that.

Well, in any case, very interesting game to watch.

Glad you're enjoying it!