RBPB4 [SPOILERS] - De Gaulle of the Egyptians

[Senseless]

Just out of curiosity, where does everyone think is a good spot for that first settler? I know this discussion is a bit premature before we've explored the east, but I figure we can at least decide on what resources to prioritize and evaluate the land we can see.

For me a decent location for a second city is the plains hill tile NW-NW-N of the capital. It's on a plains hill, has access to both the sheep and the cow (which it probably won't be able to work until the capital transitions into cottage-mode) and a ton of grassland hills. It's on a river as well for some farmland.

[Lord Parkin]

I'm quite keen on going between the Pig and the Gold, as I mentioned before. Leaves us with just Warriors for a while longer, but the economic benefit of getting that Gold hooked up early would be immense.

Settling Horses is another possibility. That Horse we see seems rather poor/inconvenient to hook up with a second city, though... maybe we'll find a better source to the east.

As I mentioned before, I'm not so sure about that site NW-NW-N of the capital, and not just because it requires a border expansion to work any resources. It also denies us both Horses and Gold for a much longer period.

[Senseless]

I think settling horses first would be a good idea. After all, we did prioritize AH because we were worried about security. The problem, though, is how far away it is. Given that we probably want to settle somewhere between the rice and the horses, this means a road of 7 or 8 tiles. Given our stonehenge plan, we're going to be short on workers for a while as it is.

My issue with the gold-pig site is that it's very production poor. Plus, we're going to be sitting on two cities for a while, so I dunno how critical it is to get gold hooked up and worked early. Getting workers out while the capital goes for SH seems more useful. I could see it as being a very useful third city, especially with the relatively long distance to the horse-rice site.

The sheep-cow site seems like it will be strong eventually, but I can see your argument about why it's not a great second base candidate.

[Yamps]

Hmm, tricky situation...

Horses are far away and it would take a lot of time to get them hooked in the capital for protection. We're probably safe anyway with the huge map layout and if we aren't, those horses would probably come too late for protection.

Well, let's get that third warrior out to check the east before making final commitment. As it is, the pig-gold site is the clear candidate for the second city imo. Maybe Joe finds some hills there as well for more production.

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Now, most importantly, I think that the SH plan should be aborted. The gold site doesn't need an obelisk, so the alternative here is Mining -> BW with the third settler out immediately instead of SH. This alternative would enable earlier chopping and stronger expansion, possibly claiming copper along the way. As I've mentioned before, I find SH dubious in general. The sooner the supporting cities are out, the sooner the empire can be specialized.

[Irgy]

I'm still for SH and gold-pigs. SH costs at the start, but it accelerates everything you do from then on, in the long run it'll be worth it.

Assuming you are building stonehenge, I don't see the need to hook horses up early. The capital is going to be busy building stonehenge and a settler that can go to the horses, so there's not all that much of a window where you're not building chariots and could have been anyway.

If you were planning to chariot rush somebody then sure, skip both stonehenge and the gold-pigs, but I don't think that's the right strategy. For defense, well, no one will know for sure whether you have horses or not anyway. Who's really going to want to try and rush Egypt?

Overall the economic benefit of settling gold nearby compared to horses far away, combined with starting the expansion off a little slower in the first place to build SH, is going to be huge. Once SH is complete that economic advantage should hopefully fund a rapid expansion to catch up.

Just my opinions though. It's not like I've calculated any numbers or anything. Remember to go back to this post to make me look stupid if someone warrior rushes you while you're building SH

[Yamps]

Well, the pigs site has pigs and gold that need improvement and capital will need more mines to build the SH. That's a stretch for the current two workers. Mining is still needed to get it done so I'd at least recommend a switch to Mining before Mysticism, if not giving up on SH completely.

[Bruindane]

Well, the pigs site has pigs and gold that need improvement and capital will need more mines to build the SH. That's a stretch for the current two workers. Mining is still needed to get it done so I'd at least recommend a switch to Mining before Mysticism, if not giving up on SH completely.

The thing that really impresses me with these games is how players deduce the research choices of their opponents, so this is riskier. Though, this opens up the question of how much you value "failure gold" during the early expansion phase.

[Lord Parkin]

I think settling horses first would be a good idea. After all, we did prioritize AH because we were worried about security. The problem, though, is how far away it is. Given that we probably want to settle somewhere between the rice and the horses, this means a road of 7 or 8 tiles. Given our stonehenge plan, we're going to be short on workers for a while as it is.

Short on Workers? No, we're going to have an excess of them. That's the whole thing about being able to road wherever we please early on.

My issue with the gold-pig site is that it's very production poor. Plus, we're going to be sitting on two cities for a while, so I dunno how critical it is to get gold hooked up and worked early. Getting workers out while the capital goes for SH seems more useful. I could see it as being a very useful third city, especially with the relatively long distance to the horse-rice site.

Think of the Pig-Gold site as effectively increasing our commerce output by 50+% early on. That is, simply put, massive.

Horses are far away and it would take a lot of time to get them hooked in the capital for protection. We're probably safe anyway with the huge map layout and if we aren't, those horses would probably come too late for protection.

I don't quite see how Horses would come too late for protection because it's a huge map layout. That's the opposite of what should be the case, isn't it?

Well, let's get that third warrior out to check the east before making final commitment. As it is, the pig-gold site is the clear candidate for the second city imo. Maybe Joe finds some hills there as well for more production.

Agreed, Pig-Gold seems the optimal second city site right now. Let's check out the east just in case though.

Now, most importantly, I think that the SH plan should be aborted. The gold site doesn't need an obelisk, so the alternative here is Mining -> BW with the third settler out immediately instead of SH. This alternative would enable earlier chopping and stronger expansion, possibly claiming copper along the way. As I've mentioned before, I find SH dubious in general. The sooner the supporting cities are out, the sooner the empire can be specialized.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Aborting Stonehenge at this late stage would be worse than making a shot at it, I think. I also think you undervalue the nationwide culture, happiness and priest slot bonuses from the wonder. Just because one city site doesn't immediately need a border expansion doesn't mean we should cancel Stonehenge altogether.

I'm still for SH and gold-pigs. SH costs at the start, but it accelerates everything you do from then on, in the long run it'll be worth it.

Agreed.

Assuming you are building stonehenge, I don't see the need to hook horses up early. The capital is going to be busy building stonehenge and a settler that can go to the horses, so there's not all that much of a window where you're not building chariots and could have been anyway.

Yeah, that's true.

If you were planning to chariot rush somebody then sure, skip both stonehenge and the gold-pigs, but I don't think that's the right strategy. For defense, well, no one will know for sure whether you have horses or not anyway. Who's really going to want to try and rush Egypt?

Exactly. Chariot-rushing simply isn't a valid strategy on this map due to the distances between civs. But in the event that anyone should consider it, they'd certainly think twice about heading for us regardless.

Overall the economic benefit of settling gold nearby compared to horses far away, combined with starting the expansion off a little slower in the first place to build SH, is going to be huge. Once SH is complete that economic advantage should hopefully fund a rapid expansion to catch up.

Indeed.

Well, the pigs site has pigs and gold that need improvement and capital will need more mines to build the SH.

No, that's the thing. The capital doesn't need any mines to build Stonehenge. They wouldn't complete in time anyway. The Mining tech will, however, be online just as we're ready to improve the Gold, so that should work out fine.

That's a stretch for the current two workers. Mining is still needed to get it done so I'd at least recommend a switch to Mining before Mysticism, if not giving up on SH completely.

Switching to Mining now IS giving up on Stonehenge (or at least greatly reducing our chances of getting it). I'm not quite sure why you think Stonehenge can't be done without mines. It's preferable to do it without mines, because that gets it out a lot faster. And even if we had mines, it would only offer +1 hammer per turn once we reached size 4 (nothing while at size 3). That's hardly much of a boost.

The thing that really impresses me with these games is how players deduce the research choices of their opponents, so this is riskier. Though, this opens up the question of how much you value "failure gold" during the early expansion phase.

Failure gold, for Stonehenge at least, is not worth anywhere near as much as getting the wonder. It's also not really worth building a wonder just for the failure gold when you could be building Settlers and Workers instead.

[Lord Parkin]

Bob moved 1SW, will continue 1SW next turn.



Joe moved onto the Gold-hill, and found... Silks. Not bad, although we already had them near our capital anyway.



Shall we head Joe 1SW again next turn to see if we can hunt out that other Gold luddite mentioned? We'll have a new Warrior in the capital in 2 turns anyway (after the Worker which is due next turn).

[Lord Parkin]

Scores this turn:

- Adlain got a 2 point increase (growth to size 3).
- Sunrise got a 5 point increase (presumably from land at turn 21).

Here's a compilation of what we know/guessed about our rivals so far (from past posts + checking Civstats).

- SleepingMoogle probably went Hunting (turn 7) -> AH (turn 20), has size 2 capital (turn 18 ).
- Adlain probably went Hunting (turn 7) -> Meditation (turn 19), has size 3 capital (growth at turns 16 and 21).
- Mackoti probably went Hunting (turn 7) -> AH (turn 19), has size 2 capital (turn 16).
- Plako probably went Hunting (turn 7) -> Fishing (turn 14), has size 2 capital (turn 19).
- Luddite probably went Hunting first (turn 7), likely going for Pottery now (mentioned in chat), has size 3 capital (growth at turns 15 and 20).
- Warlord probably went Mining first (turn 9), likely going for BW now, has size 2 capital (turn 16).
- Nakor probably went Agriculture or The Wheel first (turn 11), likely going for AH or Agriculture/The Wheel now, has size 2 capital (turn 17).
- Locke probably went Hunting first (turn 7), likely going for BW now, has size 1 capital suggesting Worker-Worker opening.
- Sunrise settled late (turn 1) and probably went Mining first (turn 10), likely going for BW now, has size 2 capital (turn 21).