[SPOILERS] ARRR Ye Scurvy Dogs! Hannah the Irin

[Mardoc]

Religion (or what can that god do for me?):

As a civ with plenty of teching potential, but underwhelming unique units, I expect to lean quite heavily on religion in my gameplan. In order to do that, I need to make sure I understand the religions, first .

This is a big subject in FFH, covering civics, buildings, units, special bonuses - even terrain. It's going to take me quite a while to even explain it, let alone summarize it and make my choice(s). Expect a number of posts while I explain FFH religion to myself, and incidentally perhaps to you, the reader. Hopefully people like Selrahc and Bob will be able to point out any mistakes I make.

First, the universal truths: all religions allow you to benefit from running the Religion Civic, which gives you +1 happy for the state religion in your city and another +1 happy if you've built its temple.

All religions have three tiers of benefits - some that anyone with the religion in a city can build, some that require the religion be your state religion, and a small number that require the holy city. It's quite possible to benefit from more than one religion, but to get the biggest bonuses, you need to run the State Religion, so at some point I need to pick a primary religion and focus on it.

Unlike in base Civ, you can get the religion yourself regardless of whether you're first to the tech or it spreads to you - you always get a free missionary when you research the enabling tech. The benefits from the Holy City, while real, are not dominating. All religions have a Shrine which produces +1 gold/city in the world with that religion, a unique Mana, helps natural spread of the religion, and a few other benefits which vary by religion.

Finally, the limit on natural spreading is higher than normal; I believe up to three religions can naturally spread to a city, plus what you spread yourself on purpose.

[DaveV]

First, the universal truths: all religions allow you to benefit from running the Religion Civic, which gives you +1 happy for the state religion in your city and another +1 happy if you've built its temple.

You get the +1 happy from state religion with or without Religion civic. Esus has no temples.

All religions have three tiers of benefits - some that anyone with the religion in a city can build, some that require the religion be your state religion, and a small number that require the holy city. It's quite possible to benefit from more than one religion, but to get the biggest bonuses, you need to run the State Religion, so at some point I need to pick a primary religion and focus on it.

You also need a special tech for some of the religious benefits (Mind Stapling, Hidden Paths, Arete, Infernal Pact). Note also that most of the second-tier benefits (heros, promoted priests) disappear if you switch away from that religion. You can keep regular priests, another good reason to chase several religions.

Any disciple except savants can do a mini culture bomb, immediately ending unrest in a captured city. All temples have some side benefit (+gold, +health, +science, +hammers), and most give an extra happy with incense (RoK gives +1 happy with Gems instead). Finally, the priests' Found Temple spell always works, so this is a good way to spread religion to cities that already have several. Also an effective way to transfer hammers from well-developed cities to newly built or newly captured ones.

Finally, priests and disciples are the only units with the Medic promotions.

Unlike in base Civ, you can get the religion yourself regardless of whether you're first to the tech or it spreads to you - you always get a free missionary when you research the enabling tech. The benefits from the Holy City, while real, are not dominating. All religions have a Shrine which produces +1 gold/city in the world with that religion, a unique Mana, helps natural spread of the religion, and a few other benefits which vary by religion.

Note that disciples' chance of spreading religion goes down as the number of religions increases, so it can be worth having a religion-free city when you discover a religion-enabling tech so you can have a guaranteed spread.

For holy cities: Nox Noctis is awfully good, making all your units inside your borders but outside cities completely invisible. No more worker poaching! Dies Diei is pretty good if your opponent is using lots of invisible units (although a bunch of hawks or floating eyes will accomplish the same thing, plus give you visibility outside your borders). The Stigmata promotion from the Ashen Veil shrine can be powerful if you're pushing the AC (worth considering for you since hell terrain has no effect on water tiles).

Since your melee units are weak, AV or OO are good final choices since each of them has a strong melee unit.

Finally, the limit on natural spreading is higher than normal; I believe up to three religions can naturally spread to a city, plus what you spread yourself on purpose.

I think the rules are the same as regular civ: no natural spread once one religion is present, (number of religions)/7 chance of disciple spread failing.

[Mardoc]

Welcome back, Dave. The only piece that surprises me is

You get the +1 happy from state religion with or without Religion civic.

That seems to really limit the value of running Religion! It also gives that minor culture boost, but it seems like it would be worth skipping most of the time. I suppose I shouldn't expect the initial, free, civics to be that valuable.

I coulda sworn I read somewhere that you could have 3 religions for free...but maybe that was just someone's rule of thumb for when to stop using disciples to spread a religion.

Anyhow, onward to the religions! I'll start with Octopus Overlords, since that's the one I could research any time now. Its prerequisite is Fishing (and Mysticism, which I believe is required for all religions), which makes it cheap to get to, unless you're not the Lanun and have better things to do than sit around with a beer and a rod.

To start with, OO turns Good civilizations Neutral. I guess it's not really that good of a thing to do, breaking the minds of the lower classes for your own benefit . Its shrine is the Necronomicon, which has standard shrine benefits, plus a Water mana, great prophet points, and allows the city to hire 2 priests and a sage.


The base tech (Message from the Deep), as Dave mentions, only unlocks half of the benefits of the religion. Also, many of the units have a secondary prerequisite somewhere on the religion branch of the tree (which is also pretty much universally true of the religions).

The benefits that anyone can have are the Zealot (Str 3, base priest, can be sacrificed to spread OO or for 20 culture, medic I) and the Temple of the Overlords (+3 culture, +1 happy with incense, allows 1 sage and 1 priest). The Temple is the required training ground for the Zealot, Cultist, Stygian Guard, and Drown.

So far, pretty underwhelming (as all religions tend to be with the universal traits). Now, what's unlocked if we take OO as our state religion?

First, we have the Drown. Any city with a Temple and a warrior can drown that warrior (for 60g), to produce a Str 3 +1 unholy unit that can use metal weaponry, and has water walking. Water walking is the signature of the OO, actually - don't worry about ships or counterattacks, just walk to the enemy along the coast and attack up the beach! Drowns fit well with the Lanun, since you'll be on the coast and so will your valuable targets, and you can build nice cheap warriors then use money on them, rather than needing to build axes instead. On the other hand - these benefits mostly apply to an offensive war; a Drown is just an swordsman on defense. Drowns are also vulnerable to fire and slow, so they won't counter Pyre Zombies very well

Second, we gain the Cultist (with Priesthood). These are very nice - Str 5, Medic II, water walking, and the kicker - the Tsunami spell. It only works next to the coast, but damages units and tile improvements within 2 squards of the caster, up to 75%! Hardly anything can stand up to a 75% damage spell. Again, this is mostly useful on offence, since it's likely to smash your improvements in the process. Tsunami is in the top 3 damage dealing spells in the game, after Snowfall and Pillar of Fire, and comes much earlier. The balance, of course, is that again, it only works at the coast.

Then, there's the Stygian Guard at Fanaticism. Str 5, +2 Unholy, Demon, March, waterwalking and can use metal. Pretty straightforward unit - bash their brains in. Since they're demons, they're immune to Fear, Death, Poison, and Unholy damage, making them a good choice against Spectres and Skeletons. Since they start Str 7 and can use metal, they can end up quite strong, as well.

So far, everything on the list is kept when you abandon OO for another religion, you just can only train them while you're OO. The next unit, the Speaker, will disappear when you switch. This high priest also requires Theology and Incense, and cannot be built, but must be upgraded from a Cultist. He is Str 7 +1 Unholy, water walking, Medic III, and gains the ability to Summon a Kraken (Str 17, water only, can Hide to become invisible), in addition to keeping Tsunami. If you need to rule the waves, the Speaker is your man.

The last unit you can get with only Message from the Deep is Hemah (although you also need Arcane Lore). He's a Hero Archmage, one of the first Archmagi you can get, who gains XP extra quick (both hero and channelling XP). He also will leave if you switch religions. If you're ok with a PBEM1 spoiler, check out this post by PB on Hemah: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=908

Finally, there's another tier of goodies available when you research Mind Stapling - the Asylum, Lunatic, Tower of Complacency, and Saverous. All require OO as state religion to be built/trained, but only Saverous will abandon you if you switch.

The Asylum gives -25% war weariness, +15% science, +1 Great prophet point, but, as a downside, takes 1 happiness and causes a 10% chance for every unit built to start Crazed and Enraged. It allows the training of Lunatics - Str 7/4, does collateral damage and can use metal, but is Crazed. These are quite useful for cracking well defended locations, but Crazed can give you major problems as they attack everywhere but where you need them to, or stand in the open and get cut down on defense. Crazed, of course, is a 10% chance per turn for the unit to become Enraged, which gives the AI control of the unit, which will try to kill something. If it succeeds without dying, you get the unit back until it goes Enraged again.

Saverous is a Hero, Str 5 +2 Unholy, +25% against Melee, and Demon. You can get him relatively early, since he only requires Mind Stapling and OO as your state religion, so he can lead any assault, or help defend.

Finally, the Tower of Complacency is an OO wonder. It removes unhappiness from a city entirely, -50% city maintenance, -10% military production - lets a city grow enormously. It might be worth aiming for City of a Thousand Slums and the Tower in the same spot.

So, to summarize the Octopus Overlords? If you're fighting a war with a coastal enemy, they're awesome. If it's an offensive war, there's probably no one better; a defensive war will give you collateral damage, but is still probably worth it. Away from the coast, they lose most of their power, but are still strong enough to consider, depending on the situation. In particular, Stygian Guards and Lunatics still are strong melee (compare a base 7 Stygian to a base 5 Boarding Party), and Medic priests are always handy. Finally, although I don't expect it to matter on this map, OO can let you get strategic surprise by attacking someone on a different continent en masse, just by walking up to their beaches.

Economically, asylums give a slight boost to science at the cost of some happiness, and the temples can of course help with culture and happiness. The Tower can boost one city dramatically. And they turn your farms blue Realistically, if you're going OO anyway, you can get a boost, but you shouldn't go OO for economy alone.

Will I go OO? Well, it depends on what I conclude from the other religions and further scouting, but probably not until I need a strong melee unit. We seem to be separated enough that I don't have to worry about an early rush, so Drowns and Saverous lose their luster. I expect my Lanun navy to be mostly uncontested and capable of ruling the seas on its own, so cultists and speakers are unnecessary. Most of my fighting will probably end up being inland. Unlike against the AI, I can't fight a war to take someone's coast then make and keep a peace.

That said, it might be worth founding for the secondary benefits - water mana, culture, happiness, money, and to keep my options open. There's not much that can defend against an OO coastal attack except OO of your own - and I'm one of the civs that could be most badly injured by an OO attack. A secondary benefit - if I intimidate other civs into founding away from the coast so they don't have to fear OO, I get all that lovely covable space for myself without having to fight for it.

[Selrahc]

That seems to really limit the value of running Religion! It also gives that minor culture boost, but it seems like it would be worth skipping most of the time. I suppose I shouldn't expect the initial, free, civics to be that valuable.

The religion civic does give an additional happiness from state religion. Without religion civic, state religion is worth +1 happiness. With religion it is worth +2.

[Mardoc]

Thanks for the correction, Selrahc. A potential delta of +2 Happy does put Religion back in the running (once a religion's been founded, anyway).

So, if I'm not going for Octopus Overlords, at least not soon - let's talk about my next available option: Runes of Kilmorph.


While the purpose of Octopus Overlords is to create an unstoppable ocean-based force, Runes is mainly about the economy. Its prerequisites are Mining and Mysticism; again, two early techs; Runes tends to fall very quickly. If I conclude that I want it, I'll have to go for it soon (and it might already be too late).

Runes of Kilmorph turns Evil Civilizations Neutral, as it emphasizes dealing honestly with everyone, paying your debts, and the like. Its shrine, the Tablets of Bambur, grants normal shrine money, plus Earth mana, 2 priest slots and a merchant slot. And Great Engineer points rather than Great Prophet points

The basics, available to anyone with the religion, are the Thane (Str 3, medic 1, standard priest) and the Temple to Kilmorph. The Temple is a bit non-standard, as it produces +2 gold instead of culture, and its happy comes with gems rather than incense. While it's twice the hammer cost of a market (and then twice again for a Financial civ like me), it does, of course, stack, and the happiness boost is handy as well.

If your state religion is RoK, you can have a few other benefits. First is the Soldier of Kilmorph; Str 4, can use weapons. He costs 90 hammers compared to the Swordsman's 60, but has a handy economic benefit - you can sacrifice a Soldier for 45 hammers in a city, a good way to move production to where you need it.

Next is the priest, or Stonewarden - Str 5, Medic II, casts Shield of Faith (+10% str). With theology, level 6, and gems, he can upgrade to a Runekeeper - Str 7 +1 Holy, can also cast Earthquake, which unfortifies units and has a chance to destroy buildings and tile improvements.

With Fanaticism, RoK players can recruit the Paramander - Str 7, Demon Slaying. At least in the manual, they cannot use metal weapons, which sounds like a mistake to me, but if true would make them much weaker than other options.

So far, a generally underwhelming lot of units - even away from the sea, OO is as good. With the 2nd tier tech, more options are opened, although again they're more skewed toward economic benefits.

First, Arete allows the civic Arete to be run - this grants +20% GPP production, +1 hammer in mines, and the ability to spend money to hurry production. As a relatively cash rich and hammer poor civ, this is quite tempting!

Units unlocked with Arete are just the heroes - Bambur with Arete alone, and Arthendain with Medicine. Bambur's pretty straightforward - Str 5, Hero, starts with an enchanted blade and the ability to cast it for others. Arthendain is Str 9, first strike chance, and the Destroy Undead spell. Both will leave you if you switch religions. If I want or fear a rush, Saverous is much better.

Next up is a handy tool, the Mines of Gal'Dur. This wonder requires 700 hammers to build, but rewards you with 3 sources of Iron, an engineer GPP, 3 engineer slots, and some unhealthiness. This is the earliest you can get your hands on Iron, and it stays around if you later switch religions.

Finally, as almost a joke, the Mithril Golem is a last tool for the RoK player. It's 5000 hammers, must be built in the RoK holy city and only after the AC has reached 70, and requires you to have researched Mithril working and have a source of Mithril. If you can manage all that, you'll be rewarded with a Str 25 unit who's not even a hero and will abandon you if you switch religions. Frankly, if I get the opportunity to train the Golem, the game will already be over. 5000 hammers of just about any other unit in the game ought to be able to slaughter the Golem.

So, to summarize Runes of Kilmorph; it's solid, and an economic boon, but ultimately rather basic. Paramanders and Soldiers are both inferior to Stygians and Drowns, the heroes are nice but not overwhelming; all in all it's not worth taking for the units. On the other hand, a temple that produces gold and happiness, the Mines of Gal-Dur and Arete are all very nice indeed. And of course, a strong economy can always be leveraged elsewhere for power.

Will I go RoK? I'm strongly tempted to do so, for a while, then switch to something better. I'm ahead on commerce, but it wouldn't hurt to turn somewhat ahead into way ahead. Arete would help me get basic infrastructure built all over the place. The Mines would let me skip Smelting and Iron Working (and those weak Boarding parties of mine). An Earth mana would not only be nice on its own, but would almost complete the set for a Tower of the Elements. And, all of those benefits would stick around when I move onward; losing Arete is the only thing that would really hurt when I switch.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Malakim also go for RoK, however, as another gold rich production poor civ - and they're spiritual, for half price temples, free religion switch, and currently Creative, to make up for the only handicap of Kilmorph - no religious culture. If I want the holy city, I'm going to have to push this high in my priority list (and maybe have already lost my chance).

[Mardoc]

To complete the initial trio, some information on the Fellowship of Leaves.


The Fellowship has no effect on your alignment. Its shrine, the Song of Autumn, produces Nature mana and Bard GPP. You need Mysticism and Hunting to get to the Fellowship, which makes it clearly 3rd place in a religion race. Hunting's both expensive and non-vital early.

The everyone benefits of the religion are the Disciple of Leaves and the Temple of Leaves, both pretty standard. Disciple is Str 3, Medic, can spread religion or become 20 culture. Temple is +1 health, +1 happy from incense.

Where the Fellowship starts to get interesting is once you're running them. The Priests of Leaves are Str 5, and get two spells - Summon Tiger (good for tiger cages and disposable units in war) and Bloom (creates forests). At level 6, with theology, they upgrade to High Priests of Leaves, Str 8, and can additionally summon Treants when on a forest square (Str 10, creates a New Forest on death).

They initially have access to those horrible Fawns (Str 4, woodsman I, 2 move), which can eventually upgrade at Animal Handling and lvl 4 to Satyrs (Str (9/4), woodsman I, 2 move, can capture animals by spell).

So far, the Fellowship is decent, but not awesome; Priests of Leaves are the nastiest piece. BUT! There are additional benefits. First, all forests in FoL lands have a per turn chance to upgrade to Ancient Forest (3/1/0). In addition, at Hidden Paths, FoL players get access to the frankly awesome civic Guardian of Nature, which grants all cities +5 health and +1 happy per forest, and has a chance every time an Ancient Forest is entered by an enemy to spawn a free Treant. Surround a city with forests and you'll easily make a happy cap in the 30's, with the healthiness and food to support it.

After something that awesome, the heroes (who are quite nice) seem like a letdown. Kythia Kyriel, Str 8, move 3, 35% withdrawal, hero at Feral Bond, and Yvain (Str 9, +2 nature affinity, hero, channelling 1,2,3, life 1, nature 1, medic III, +50% attack/defense in forests and +100% in Ancient Forests) are both extremely nice units, only overshadowed by the forest economy. Both leave if you switch religion.

Fellowship of Leaves Summary: It's got some good units - the Priests and the heroes, especially. Mostly what sets the fellowship apart is the forest economy, especially for elves - a 3/1/0 improvable tile everywhere with an essentially unlimited health/happy cap.

That said, will I go Fellowship? No. A 3/1/0 tile is actually not that overwhelming; elves can get around it by mining or cottaging all their forests, but as a human, I need commerce! And movement speed! And defensibility! And hammers are usually easier to get by mining. Finally, without access to any strong non-hero units, the religion doesn't manage to solve my weakness.

I can't really benefit from temporarily running Fellowship, either - the strongest pieces are Guardian of Nature and the heroes. The one piece that's crossed my mind would be to combine a Priest of Leaves Blooming everywhere with some workers chopping the forests down, but even if that's possible, I think the delay between Blooming a New Forest and it becoming choppable would put the kibosh on that.

One of these days I'll have to try a non-elven Fellowship game (might make a decent Adventure, actually ), but Today is Not That Day.

I'm 99% sure that Nyktorian is going for Fellowship, however. When you're an elf, it's just so awesome that you can't resist. Expecting Thessa to give up on Fellowship would be like expecting me to skip coves. Maybe I can buy some Priests from her for the Temples.

[Selrahc]

Bear in mind.. forests can be lumbermilled. A lumbermilled hill forest is as good as a mine for production all the way until blasting powder, but also adds health. If lumbermills convert to ancient forests they are pretty useful tiles, if a bit underwhelming compared to elf benefits.

Having said that.. ancient forests cannot have lumbermills built in them. So you'd be working to build them before the forests convert. Which means any attempt to really leverage the system would require lots of available worker actions.

[Mardoc]

A fairly uneventful turn, once it finally made it to me . Why we made it through 38 turns in 28 days, but can't make it through 1 in 3 days this week is beyond me...

Anyway, I debated between starting the settler now and growing first; a back of the envelope calculation says it'll be 9 turns either way, so I might as well grow first. That ought to mean city 2 will be founded just in time for my turn 50 wrap up; a little slow, but hopefully I can make up for that now I have Pirate Harbors. There's a little production going into an Elder Council while I wait for growth, which in retrospect was a mistake, it should have been a work boat scout. Meanwhile, the garrison of Cap'n Crunch just shrunk; I figured I'd send the scouting warrior off north, and the future city 2 garrison to explore City 3's peninsula; they ought to be able to make it back in time for the settler to arrive.

Demographics wise, I'm now comfortably in the GNP lead, by something like 38 to 28. I guess my GNP just swings that much when I switch from food to hammers. Gotta finish up my religious analysis soon so that I know where to go after Bronze.

[Mardoc]

Bear in mind.. forests can be lumbermilled. A lumbermilled hill forest is as good as a mine for production all the way until blasting powder, but also adds health. If lumbermills convert to ancient forests they are pretty useful tiles, if a bit underwhelming compared to elf benefits.

Having said that.. ancient forests cannot have lumbermills built in them. So you'd be working to build them before the forests convert. Which means any attempt to really leverage the system would require lots of available worker actions.

Well, the way I see it, there's a couple problems with going this route. The biggest cost is the opportunity to have some strong religious units. I really need something better than Lanun base units - with weaker melee line, and neither Arcane nor Charismatic to let me rely on mages, I need something to give me an edge. Second, there's the problem that the best I can hope for on this route is to be almost as good as the elves. In a game where there are in fact elves, I can't really afford to be their little brother.


Now, if any human race could pull it off, it would probably be the Financial Lanun, since they can get so much commerce from the sea, but ultimately I think it would still leave me behind techwise, and hence definitely in units as well. It might be worth a diversion to get one Priest of Leaves trained, so I can plop down lumbermillable forests anywhere, but realistically as a non-spiritual civ, I'm making enough diversions as it is.

And, since we've gone from a turn/day to a turn/3 days, I might as well continue with my religious series. Next up, death and destruction and despair - a perfect fit for when the turn stops moving - the Ashen Veil, Ladies and Gentlemen!


The Ashen Veil is entwined into all sorts of things in this game, but the most dramatic is the Armageddon Counter and Hyborem. Every Ashen Veil city in the game adds one to the AC, one of the strongest methods to increase the counter. The Ashen Veil Shrine, Stigmata on the Unborn, has a lot of effects. In addition to helping spread the religion, allowing the owner to run 2 priests and a scientist, granting an Entropy mana, granting 1 beaker per city with Ashen Veil, and adding 5 to the AC, it grants every unit built in its city the Stigmata promotion. Stigmata grants its unit +AC/2% str. Finally, no matter where you start, when you adopt the Veil, you become Evil.

So, already, the Ashen Veil can both increase the AC and benefit from it - sound like anyone we know in the game?

The available to all items are somewhat unique. First we have the Savant, the low level priest. Listed at only Str 2 (I'm guessing he should be +1 unholy?), with the normal priest abilities (medic I and conversion), except that instead of sacrificing him for 20 culture, you can instead sacrifice him for 15 beakers. The temple is similar - no culture production, just the normal percentage boost, but it produces 2 beakers, in addition to unlocking the various AV units and providing a happy with reagents. This is one of the buildings that helps the Sheaim - Temples of the Veil in a Planar Gate city enable the Gate to spawn Tar Demons (Str 2/7, +1 unholy)

Now, with the religion are unlocked a few more treats. First we have the Diseased Corpse, Str 4 +2 Death, can use weapons, Undead and Diseased. Diseased is a situational thing - it inhibits healing and is passed to enemies in combat. If you're winning, it helps you win more, but if you're losing, it hurts. Fortunately most priests can cure disease, so if you need to you can remove the disease from all your troops before battle.

Next up, the Ritualist. Effectively Str 3 +2 Unholy, extra XP gain, Medic I, II can cast Ring of Fire (damages all units within 1 20% up to 40% total). Pretty nice - more damage than a Maelstrom, and that already cut the combat effectiveness of a unit in half. The Ring of Flames can also start fires, except in Ancient Forests.

When he reaches level 6, and you reach Theology with incense in hand, your ritualist can become a Profane, Str 8, picking up Summon Balor (a Str 11/7, Stigmata Demon, who can use weapons).

Then, you can recruit your first Veil hero, Rosier the Fallen. Str 7 +1 Unholy, move 3, Hero, adds 2 to AC upon creation. Simple, to the point. When you make it to Malevolent Designs, you can also recruite Mardero (Str 10, +4 Unholy, move 2, Hero, Stigmata, and can cast as an archmage!)

To finish off the base tech benefits, when you reach Malevolent Designs, you can train the Beast of Agares. Str 16 demon with +25% vs Paladins, but on creation the training city loses 4 population and goes into revolt.

If that's not enough for you, if you need more, you'll have to research the Infernal Pact. First, this brings Hyborem into the world - separate faction, hell terrain, etc. If you're interested, you switch to him ala Bob; otherwise you leave him be. Hell terrain can mess up the world badly. It usually has the same production, except that all forests and jungles will burn down, resources become Hell varieties (and usually less varied - both cows and horses become nightmares, for instance, and corn, rice, and wheat all become snake pillars), and Demons tend to get bonuses to battle on Hell terrain. The other nasty thing is that deserts, including floodplains, become Burning Sands - no natural food production (although they can be farmed), mostly impassible (some units can cross, but I haven't figured out which precisely). Hell terrain spreads from its starting point to adjacent tiles, depending on the AC - always to a Ashen Veil follower, at 25 to unowned tiles, at 50 to Evil civs and at 75 to Neutral civs. Good civs are immune, unless they want to expand .

So, for someone like me, Hell terrain is an inconvenience - it'll burn down whatever forests I'm using, shrink the number of resources I can use, and possibly make some impassible moats of flame (which can even be a plus!). For someone like, say, Ljosalfar or Malakim, it can be a disaster, burning down all the trees and wrecking their lovely floodplains. It can be fought with Life I and Water I, one tile at a time. I'm strongly considering bringing Hyborem into the world just to give these two a headache, presuming someone else (Irgy) doesn't do so first. This was the main lesson I learned from Adventure II (which I do plan to finish and report on soon).

Of course, the trouble with that approach is that all they have to do is remain Neutral or Good, and I'd be hurting myself so they don't want to conquer, not even the Illian benefit of terrain being good for me but bad for them. Whether this makes sense will depend on what they do religionwise, and what Irgy can do to the AC.

Anyhow, that's all just the side effects of making your Infernal Pact. What's in it for you?

First and foremost, you get access to the civic Sacrifice the Weak. This costs 5 health/city, but gives you +10% gold and science, and the biggie - POPULATION ONLY COSTS 1 FOOD/TURN, NOT TWO!. So what if your floodplains burn down and your resources shrink? Just let Agares take the hindmost, and you'll thrive.

You also gain the option of building a Demon's Altar - extra XP for Demons, +1 Unhappy, units built gain Scourge (bonus against Divine units), and the option to Sacrifice a unit for 10 + level*level beakers.

Next, you can build the Infernal Grimoire, to grant yourself a free tech, just like the Oracle in base Civ, only it comes when the techs are getting expensive.

Finally, if you make it to AC 70 and can spare a cool 5000 hammers in your Holy City, you can recruit Meshabber of Dis. Almost as much a waste as the Mithril Golem, but at least he's stronger - Str 19, + 6 Fire +6 Unholy, can use weapons, Demon and can cast fireballs. Ultimately can be a Str 35 unit; only Auric Ascended is stronger. Of course, if you can spare 5000 hammers, you ought to have already won the game.

So, to summarize the Ashen Veil: Strong units, both the divine branch and the melee ones. A bunch of small bonuses to research. And Sacrifice the Weak, by which you can get more out of your Hell Terrain than the others can wring from their normal lands. The theme is sacrifice - to get the best boosts, you have to accept penalties in return.

Will I go Ashen Veil? I'm not sure. Diseased corpses and Beasts of Agares with Ritualists in support could be a strong combination. Hell terrain doesn't hit the ocean, so I could still pull in 3-5 food per square, supporting a lot of miners, specialists, etc (and 4 pop per Beast). On the other hand, Ashen Veil provides mostly slow units who wouldn't take advantage of Raiders properly, and Hell Terrain is ugly to look at If I want a sledgehammer, this here is a mighty fine sledgehammer, though. After seeing PBEM 1, I suspect people will be working on their Raiders defenses; being cautious about roads and building forts; maybe a sledgehammer is the right tool when your foe expects a rapier. And my foes (with the possible exception of Malakim) will not be raiders.

The one thing I am sure about is that I don't want to switch to Hyborem unless the situation is desperate. There aren't enough likely sources of Manes in a MP game, especially one with mostly goody two-shoes around.

Hell Terrain won't be that much of a deterrent to being conquered, either; both Elohim and Ljosalfar have Life mana, so could restore my lands after they take them. Similarly, both have bonuses against demons and access to Destroy Undead. Irgy needs to go Ashen Veil; there's no better way to boost the AC, so if I want it myself, I'm going to have to decide to take it. Malakim would be committing suicide to go AV, Ljosalfar likewise. Elohim and Bannor might go AV, depending on the situation. I could even see Bannor going AV, launching a Crusade, and then switching to Hyborem, if no one else takes it first.

A strong argument against AV is if the Elohim do well in this game (and they might be the mysterious GNP leader if they snagged two specialists or an awesome starting location). With Demon slayers, Life Mana and Water mana, they're perfectly suited to taking out the AV players.

Anyhow, although the current plan is probably RoK for an econ boost, both OO and AV would be nice places to end up. I'd much rather have Str 8 Iron Diseased Corpses and Str 16 Beasts than make do with Str 7 Iron Boarding Parties.

[Selrahc]

Almost as much a waste as the Mithril Golem

Eh. He starts out at S31. Then can get promotions, which can leave him with preposterous, nearly unbeatable, strength. He isn't worth 5000 hammers, but he is a lot better than the Mithril Golem. The Mithril Golem is just rubbish. It's a super unit that isn't all that super. The Meshabber at least is a legitimate doom weapon. Like building the Death Star or something. Impractical, but very intimidating.