PBEM8 - regoarrarr takes over for Meatbalz

[regoarrarr]

And it continues to be a 2 man show, a 2 horse race, or whatever binary metaphors you'd like to come up with.

Shoot the Moon built the Apostolic Palace, while as mentioned earlier, WarriorKnight was the first to research Liberalism. He took Nationalism, rushed the Taj with a stored engineer, and is now enjoying a (Mausoleum-enhanced) golden age.

I am slowly but surely solidifying my grasp on 3rd however, and now sit a full 100+ points ahead of Serdoa.

I actually think the AP isn't that great of a build as a non-Spiritual civ. Especially this late, monasteries are going to obsolete before too long (along with their +2 hammers), and non-Spiritual temples give a pretty long payback horizon (53 hammers). Though I wonder if you still get 2 hammers on quick, or if it's only 1? And since it's AW, any diplo resolutions don't really come into play (unless he can get Judaism into a foreign city?), so 268 hammers seems like a lot (since he's not Industrious either). Of course, when there's only you and one other civ building all the wonders, might as well build em all.... :rolleyes:

Paprika just finished a market, and, since I also just discovered Guilds at EOT, will slip in a 2t knight before building a grocer as well, both for the 25% coin (13 gpt @ breakeven science) as well as the health (+3 health from spices, wine and sugar when I finish hooking it up)

Here are my "glorious" lands.



I'm thinking as far as tech path goes, a run to the "girly" techs of Aesthetics, Drama and Literature, so that I can get started on the epics as well as the Globe Theater. Somewhere in there I will slip in the super cheap tech of Meditation for a Christian Monastery at Paprika (at breakeven science that's worth 5bpt)

But then what? Here's my options (all of which probably have to be researched soon - but what first?)

* Gunpowder. For muskets. Oddly enough, nobody's researched that yet, though the big dogs are heading towards Rifling so I assume it won't be long
* Banking. For Mercantilism
* Philosophy -> Nationalism. To be able to draft, of course
* Military Tradition (after Nat). For Curaissers.
* The rifle path. For... wait for it... rifles
* Compass -> Optics -> Astronomy. To defend my island lands

I think that's about the order I'm going to need to do it too.

[T-hawk]

Though I wonder if you still get 2 hammers on quick, or if it's only 1?

I think you're just trolling for post count but I'll bite. It's still 2 hammers on quick. The only means of production that change for game speed are conversions between production types when you've already paid the "speed tax" for slower speed or taken the "speed discount" for quick. That is whipping (food-hammers), bulbing (GPP-beakers), GE rushing (GPP-hammers), trade missions (GPP-cash), great works (GPP-culture), infiltration (GPP-EP). And forest chops both fit into that conversion (worker turns-hammers) and into the idea that a forest should represent a fixed percentage of a building across game speeds.

And since it's AW, any diplo resolutions don't really come into play (unless he can get Judaism into a foreign city?)

Can't be done directly. The only way a religion can spread outside its founder's civ in Always War is random spread, if the atheist city can see a trade path up to the border of the holy city's civ but the two civs have not contacted each other. This is rare by its nature. (Other than a city with the religion changing hands, of course. Or maybe some random event.)

[regoarrarr]

I think you're just trolling for post count but I'll bite. It's still 2 hammers on quick. The only means of production that change for game speed are conversions between production types when you've already paid the "speed tax" for slower speed or taken the "speed discount" for quick. That is whipping (food-hammers), bulbing (GPP-beakers), GE rushing (GPP-hammers), trade missions (GPP-cash), great works (GPP-culture), infiltration (GPP-EP). And forest chops both fit into that conversion (worker turns-hammers) and into the idea that a forest should represent a fixed percentage of a building across game speeds.

I can't believe you would accuse me of such a thing!!! Okay so in that case, it's not quite as bad. Still 26 turn payback is a lot. My main experience with the AP was in PB1, where I

a) was spiritual, so had 40 hammer temples
b) rushed it with an engineer fairly early in the game
c) Also had the ability for diplo shenanigans ( which ALMOST worked )

Can't be done directly. The only way a religion can spread outside its founder's civ in Always War is random spread, if the atheist city can see a trade path up to the border of the holy city's civ but the two civs have not contacted each other. This is rare by its nature. (Other than a city with the religion changing hands, of course. Or maybe some random event.)

Yeah that's what I thought - so I don't think that will be too much of an issue here.

[regoarrarr]

Okay on a lazy Saturday morning while I tried to see how quiet I could keep the kids to see how late I could let my wife sleep in, I did some testing with attacking ad hoc's border city.

This is what is currently garrisoning the city of Salt (now grossly re-titled "Elredd"

* 5 dog soldiers
* 1 spear
* 3 cats
* 1 xbow
* 1 G3 longbow
* and it has 50% culture - walls on a hill

Nothing but the longbow has promotions (except City Raider ones on a bunch of stuff which of course does no good on defense)

Some assumptions:

* I can 1 move the city even with 1-movers (this assumes that I keep control of the crucial tile 1NE of the city)
* I can keep enough other units in the north to deter Shoot the Moon
* Just about everything I build has 2 promotions (true due to Theocracy)
* Nothing else gets built in there (probably a bad assumption but everything else that gets built just means more units for me)

I ran some sims, and found that all I need are
* 3-5 catapults - no bombardment just send them in to a) weaken the longbow and b) collateral everything else
* 2-3 knights - to take out the wounded longbow and crossbow
* 2 workers to road the tile
* then just enough units to clean up the debris - everything else gets 80-90% odds. So say 11 other units. Crossbows seem to be the most hammer efficient way to do it - they get much better odds against dog soldiers than maces

I'm probably not that far from being able to do that actually! I'll give a more full report next time the save comes my way

[regoarrarr]

A few more notes on the simming.

* I don't want the longbow injured TOO much. If it drops too low then my knights won't target it
* But in one sim I had 5 cats barrage and only took it down by 1 hit (11 HPs) - that was bloody. 3 hits is the minimum I need I think. That will take its base strength under 12, which means that a C2 Knight has odds on it.

So I think
2 workers
4 knights
5 catapults
10 xbows / maces

[regoarrarr]

Got the save back now and it's time for "Operation Lot". Cuz, ya know, as ad hoc's women and children are fleeing the city, they'll look back and see me renaming it to (a pillar of) "Salt"

It is now Turn 119.



The crucial tile is down to 53% Mayan. I believe it was 54% last turn. This makes sense, as it's 1st ring to Elredd while only 2nd ring to Cardamom (though that has popped its 3rd ring so it's putting in 23cpt into that tile).

My first guess is that I need to schedule the Operation for 6 turns from now (T125). That may even be optimistic, but let's see what kind of resources we can get by then.

Existing resources that can be spared:

* 2 cats, 1 GG xbow and 1 longbow in Cardamom
* 1 C1 mace and 1 3xp crossbow near Saffron that can be appropriated
* 1 cat just created in Pepper
* 1 3XP xbow garrisoning Pepper (will need replacement garrisons)
* C1Shock Mace and C1 xbow offshore that will need to be galleyed in (questionable - depends on logistics as well as whether I want to try and refound a city on that island)

[regoarrarr]

So, let's talk about forces in production, and how many hammers will be able to produce in the next few turns. But before we do that, let's talk about who can make it there. This all assumes a T125 attack date, so if we move that up or back, all numbers mentioned in this section would have to adjust

Tiles away from Salt:
* Cardamom (3)
* Paprika and Cumin (6)
* Cinnamon (8 ) (grr to the 8) smiley)
* Saffron (9)
* Pepper (11)

born T125: 2 movers from Paprika, Cumin and any units made in Cardamom
born T124: 1 movers from Paprika and Cumin, 2 movers from Cinnamon, Saffron or Pepper
born T123: 1 movers from Saffron and Cinnamon
born T122: 1 movers from Pepper

For reference, unit costs:
* xbow (40)
* mace (46)
* Knight (60)
* cat (33)

[regoarrarr]

So how much can we produce in the next few turns? First let's talk just considering the cities as they now stand without considering that we might be able to work more hammer heavy tiles or potential whipping

* Cardamom - 18 hammers already in a catapult (15 remaining), then 13 hammers on T119 and 17 hammers for the next 5 turns (due to a city growth) - 98 hammers total
* Pepper - 93 hammers if it's a 1 mover, or 117 if it's a 2 mover
* Saffron - 17 hammers already in a longbow (16 remaining), then 85 hammers for 1 movers or 100 for 2 movers. The longbow could be used or possibly take up garrison duty for an xbow or mace in the area
* Cumin - 35 hammers for 1 mover or 42 for a 2 mover. Note it doesn't have a barracks yet - might be able to whip a barracks then whip a unit.
* Paprika - 3 hammers overflow then 165 hammers of one movers or 198 hammers of 2 movers
* Cinnamon - 19 hammers already in a catapult, then 19 hammers overflow and then not much else - like Cumin any units from here will probably have to be whipped. I think I could whip on T120 and T122 for 2 units

So judging from what I already have, I still need:
* 4 knights (5 would be nice)
* 2 more cats
* 6 xbows / maces
* 2 workers (which shouldn't be a problem but I'm listing them here so I remember them!)

So 240 hammers of knights, 29 hammers left to finish 2 cats, and 260 (ish) hammers of xbows / maces. 529 hammers total. Adding up what I wrote is 98 + 127 + 100 + 42 + 198 = 565. So we're golden. If I can get 2-4 units out of whips, I might even be able to shift the timeline up 1 turn.

So let's look at whips, hoping for a T124 attack (1 turn earlier than originally planned)
First Cinnamon
* T119 (current turn): 19/33 in cat, with 21h due to 19h overflow
* T120 cat finishes, 7h overflow into a knight
* T121 9/60 in the knight, triple whip it
* T122 knight born and can make it for a T124 attack

In Cumin I can't get a barracks and another unit out. So I'll either get a 1 promo unit out or just not worry about Cumin providing any units for this attack.

So still need 180 + 15 + 260 = 455 hammers, but I have one less turn, so that's 81 + 93 + 85 + 168 or 427 hammers. So I think I need at least the mace and maybe the xbow from offshore. Ooh just realized I have one chariot! Once I get it down to the dog soldiers, a chariot is an easy win, so that's 40 hammers less that I need! Make it 415!

So (going for the start my paragraphs with "so" six-pack!) how about this:
* Cardamom: finish the cat and then 2 xbows (3 hammers extra)
* Cinnamon: cat and knight as outlined above
* Pepper: 27 + 22 + 22 + 22 = 93 hammers which is not enough for an xbow + knight. Let me hire an engineer at slight starvation, which gives me 30 + 25 + 25 + 25 or 105 which is! So xbow + knight there
* Saffron: Unfortunately my crossbows in this theater are already promoted down the Guerilla line, so they're not as useful in Operation Lot. But I think I will do a longbow then a knight here - I have enough hammers for the knight to be finished on T123 if I mine the grass hill next instead of plantationing my sugar. I'll make a call closer to D-Day if I want to send the longbow or use the longbow here and send a mace.

Just leaves the capital of Paprika

Remember I already have assigned

Existing resources that can be spared:

* 2 cats, 1 GG xbow and 1 longbow in Cardamom
* 1 C1 mace and 1 3xp crossbow near Saffron that can be appropriated
* 1 cat just created in Pepper
* 1 3XP xbow garrisoning Pepper (will need replacement garrisons)
* C1Shock Mace and C1 xbow offshore that will need to be galleyed in (questionable - depends on logistics as well as whether I want to try and refound a city on that island)

So now I have total:
* 5 cats
* 6 xbows
* 2 longbows and 1 mace (or 1 longbow, 2 maces)
* 3 knights
* 1 chariot

So I really need 1-2 knights, and 1-2 xbows / maces. Paprika has 36 + 33 + 33 + 33 + 33 + 33 (2 movers born on T124 can make it) or a total of 201 hammers. I can do 2 knights, 1 mace and 1 xbow (maybe 2 maces depending if I can squeeze some more hammers).

But it sounds like a plan! Now I just gotta a) convince Shoot the moon not to invade me first (though I still do have some pikes and cats available to deal with him), and b) hope that I can control the crucial tile for 5 more turns.

[regoarrarr]

So first the good news: "the" tile is still at 53/46 Mayan, which means that it's pretty likely that it will still be under my control on D-Day for Operation Lot. Also no additional defenders.

Bad news: Just kidding - no bad news! At least not .... yet

Shoot the Moon's power is still insane and climbing even more insanely



I have seen no signs of it but it's out there somewhere (numbers are 713K to my 393K )

So I think that I have to give up plans of trying to settle on the western island (that contains the city that I just razed off of Serdoa). I'm nervous about trying to spread myself too thin. Though his power sucks (325K and worst). I am also torn with whether I settle on the iron hill for better defense, or just replant where he was.

The question now is if I don't try to refound over there (I have a spare settler), do I leave my units over there, "guarding" the island? I think so, but what kinds? Currently there's a mace and a xbow over there. I guess the easiest thing would be to just leave them over there. I toyed with trying to get one of those units there to come back for O.L. and swap a longbow over there, but I don't think that's worth it.

Let's do a sit-rep of forces available as of the current turn T120

Already in-theater (defined as in Cardamom besides 1 CG archer which will remain behind):
* 3 archers (1 G2, 1 G1, 1 no promo)
* 1 chariot (C1 medic)
* 1 xbow (C2 formation)
* 1 longbow (5xp)
* 1 cats (1 5xp) (There was also a 0xp cat there that I'm going to shift to reserve and bring another 5xp one forward.
* 1 worker

On the way:
* 2 maces (1 C1, 1 3XP)
* 2 xbow (both 3xp)
* 1 worker
* 4 cats (3 5xp, 1 CR1)

In-production:
* Knight in Cinnamon (triple whipped T121, born T122, arrives T124)
* Cat in Cardamon (due T121)
* Knight in Paprika (due T121)
* xbow in Pepper (due T121, arrives T124)

Queued up:
* 2 xbows in Cardamom (due T122 and T124)
* Knight in Saffron (I don't think it can make it - I think I screwed up something - I may still whip it T122)
* Mace in Paprika (due 122)
* Knight in Paprika (due 124)
* Knight in Pepper (due 123)

So as that stands, that gives total forces of:
* 5 knights (including the one in Saffron)
* 3 maces
* 6 xbows
* 6 cats
* 1 longbow
* 1 chariot
* 2 archers
* 2 workers

So we're looking good I think (as far as I can tell)

In other news - tech-wise I finished my 1t on Aesthetics. My plan had to do breakeven research on Drama (also 1t) this turn, but I'm just nervous about Shoot the Moon's stack, so I'm going to keep research on Drama, but turn science down to 0% in case I need to do a few holkan -> pike upgrades.

[regoarrarr]

I always get nervous when Shoot updates his thread. Like it's going to be something like

"Just dropped off 20 knights to regoarrarr" :-/