RBPBEM FfH V [SPOILERS] Sareln of the Amurites

[Sareln]

YACWB

Synopsis: Bob wants all of the Clan's neighbors to place their first cities towards the clan. This should constrict their options. I agree. We leave open the possibility later on of a Mutual-Defense Pact against the Clan. Tredje has mentioned he could monopolize the other continent with his worldspell if he's clever. Asks me to talk to Iskender about it. Offers to let me pretend it's my idea, but I think it better to be upfront about it. That and I suck at lying.

(12:41:33 PM) BobChllingsworth: I get the impression that you are perhaps worried about the Clan?
(12:42:20 PM) Sareln: aggressive/organized leader + rush CIV.
(12:42:27 PM) Sareln: I'm also a big gunshy from PBEM 1 naturally
(12:42:29 PM) BobChllingsworth: cause' I actually have a plan to contain them, I've brought it up with SL but figured I'd wait with you until you were closer to being able to expand
(12:42:29 PM) Sareln:
(12:42:44 PM) Sareln: I'm all ears.
(12:43:10 PM) BobChllingsworth: Pretty simple. You, me, Iskender, and SL all plant our first cities toward them. Maybe our second towns as well
(12:43:25 PM) BobChllingsworth: given how cramped the map is, the Clan will be more or less surrounded
(12:43:33 PM) Sareln: It's doable for me
(12:43:33 PM) BobChllingsworth: and confined to few cities
(12:43:40 PM) Sareln: there's a jungled Gem that I want to get in that direction
(12:43:54 PM) Sareln: Iskender as well, he's got a good FP area to the south
(12:44:04 PM) BobChllingsworth: good. My first town will be going down in their direction in four turns, baring an interuption
(12:44:07 PM) Sareln: we'll probably work out a settling deal with Iskender that way.
(12:44:29 PM) Sareln: With my backs to the sea, the only direction I can expand is either towards Iskender or the Clan.
(12:45:18 PM) BobChllingsworth: I figure it's a good deal for all of us (except the clan, obviously). Instead of all of us potentially getting on each other's nerves with our expansion, we instead can losely coordinate vs. a common enemy
(12:45:41 PM) BobChllingsworth: It's also not quite as lame as all of us warrior dog-piling Tredje or whatever
(12:46:07 PM) BobChllingsworth: although we may want some sort of mutual defense pact going on in regards to Clan aggresssion- depends on how they react, I guess
(12:46:49 PM) Sareln: I'm not sure a warrior-dogpile works in FFH
(12:47:01 PM) Sareln: especially since he could just call up a bunch of auxiliaries using FtH
(12:47:24 PM) BobChllingsworth: As for why the Clan- like you alluded to, they're the civ with the least chance of going for any sort of peaceful win condition, so we're very likely all going to have to fight him eventually
(12:47:38 PM) BobChllingsworth: so I won't feel too poorly about coordinating against them
(12:48:02 PM) BobChllingsworth: plus as Tredje noted in his chat with me, he can get like a 100 turn advantage on colonizing the other landmass, assuming there is one
(12:48:19 PM) BobChllingsworth: all he has to do is pop his worldspell once the barbs start making cities, and then declare on them
(12:48:24 PM) Sareln: ah
(12:48:25 PM) Sareln: good point
(12:48:38 PM) Sareln: I don't think that can be allowed to slide
(12:49:28 PM) Sareln: (free continent)
(12:49:33 PM) Sareln: are vassal states on though?
(12:49:42 PM) Sareln: the maintenance might end up being crippling in that case...
(12:50:02 PM) BobChllingsworth: I think vassals are off
(12:50:08 PM) BobChllingsworth: he does have Org btw
(12:50:19 PM) Sareln: yeah, I know.
(12:50:24 PM) BobChllingsworth: combined with city states, it's not utterly crippling
(12:50:42 PM) BobChllingsworth: even artistocracy gives that distance maintenance reduction (which it probably needs to lose)
(12:51:40 PM) Sareln: fair.
(12:53:04 PM) Sareln: Alright, so I'm onboard the place-first-city-towards-clan plan. Though with the harass my settler is a ways off.
(12:53:35 PM) Sareln: I'm going to grep the chat-log into my spoilerthread now :D
(12:54:22 PM) BobChllingsworth: go for it
(12:54:37 PM) BobChllingsworth: also mind bringing up the settler thing with Iskender?
(12:54:54 PM) BobChllingsworth: it will be a few turns until I have contact with him, provided my scout even survives that long
(12:55:21 PM) BobChllingsworth: I'm diverting Tingle from his westward journey to get a better visual on the Clan borders
(12:55:34 PM) Sareln: Sure, I can bring it up in the course of our land-split negotiations.
(12:55:52 PM) BobChllingsworth: great. Just make sure he knows the score before he plants his first town
(12:56:40 PM) BobChllingsworth: oh and feel free to not mention that I came up with it, if you think that would make him object (since plotting with him didn't go so well last game)
(12:56:57 PM) BobChllingsworth: or you can name drop me if you think he won't care- I don't mind either way.
(12:57:16 PM) Sareln: Openness is probably the best in this regard
(12:57:21 PM) Sareln: since if we all but him do this
(12:57:25 PM) Sareln: then the clan expand towards him
(12:57:30 PM) Sareln: and take lands he should've had
(12:57:37 PM) Sareln: so defection costs from the plan are pretty high.
(12:57:39 PM) Sareln: IMO.
(12:58:17 PM) BobChllingsworth: k

[Sareln]

Diplomacy:

Tredje & Mardoc:

Yes, this does assuage my fear somewhat. I also found the Clan border and they are a "safer" distance away from me I think. That will be in the turn report.

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Salve Sareln,

I'd like to apologize for responding so late. I started writing a reply, then someone caught me on google chat and I forgot all about it. Square Leg did indeed provide us with his estimate of starting locations, and our scouting has shown that he is pretty much in the right. We met the Clowns who are located to the Southeast of Clan lands. We have also met the Sidar to the north. The Sheaim is the only civilization we haven't met yet, but according to Sqaure Leg (no, that is not a typo) they are 13-14 tiles to the east (and a bit south) of Dwarven lands. How are things with the Amurites? I saw your power level dropped a bit, having barb troubles?

- Tredje & Mardoc, Orc & Goblin[/COLOR]

Bobchillingworth:

Bob sent this picture along.

I repaid with this picture of the most recent scouting of the Clan perimeter.

[COLOR="Magenta"]
One good deed deserves another no?

-Sareln-

[/COLOR]

[Sareln]

Turn 35:
The clan is not nearly as close as I originally assumed from the speed of our first contact. This is good. I'm not going to pink-dot them, because that would be suicide, but I can keep to the character of my agreement with Bob by settling in their direction. No need to be reckless, just grab the gems and sugars while I tech to BW. That'll give me +2 happy for a size 8 Capital. If I can throw down a city next to the wines/tomb, that'll give another +1 happy and a perfectly reasonable happy cap for the early-mid game.

I do have enough information now to dial up Iskender and ask him what he thinks about a settling deal. I absolutely want the mirror and the southern part of the floodplain river that I can see, but am perfectly willing to give up the fur/gold in the north, especially since it's really far out of my way. With the clan, I'm inclined to let them know about the ivory/dragon bones to the north of their capital, since I'm not sure if they're visible to them, and it might encourage them to settle straight north first, before trying to push left towards me. My overarching goal is to get settling deals and NAPs in place with both my neighbors and then peacefully build up to my Empyrean/Adept midgame. Hopefully in a manner that encourages the clan to focus early aggression somewhere else.

FfHPBEM IV Spoiler:

I actually didn't know about the Goblin-Fort recruitment mechanic for the Clan before it got mentioned in PBEM IV. It's something to be cautious about as the game proceeds. I'll definitely will want to clear the fort before I end up in a war with the clan.

Capital:

Scout:

Demographics:

[Sareln]

Here is a stitch of the lands between me, the Sidar, and the Clan.

[Sareln]

That same stitch with a dotmap on it. I could pull in some of the outlying cities further in, but that gives up some hill-city sites (for defense) and so I won't cede that land unless I have to. Iskender, I think I can just outright cut a deal with that gives him the north for me to get a piece of that floodplain river valley.

Ded-Lurker comments on the dotmap?

[Mist]

I'd say it might be defensible, but lacks cities with oomph factor. The yellow dot look especially meh, and the banana/rice reaches rather far for no real payoff.

Here's my stab

With yellow being the absolute priority ( locks red for you and gives you ages to backsettle blue ). Viability of green depends on how much do you want to annoy Iskender, it's strong though, does grab you the gold and secures northern mana node for later acquisition. No green makes gray much stronger. This placement is not very tight, but might be worth it long term. And is of course open to revision pending copper and horses.

[Sareln]

Those are sugars in south of the gems. Don't know why they didn't show up.

[Sareln]

Also, Mist, I'm pretty sure I'm going to need 1 - 2 good coastal cities with which to produce transports/navy. Acheron, at least, is on another continent/island, and there's a strong possibility that there is more land out there to be had.

[Mist]

Well, red is coastal and very good

But this might also work

Can you tell I love the blue heart tile? Now THAT would be a pink dot worthy of the ™
And more seriously :

• You have your strong coastal in Pink.
  
• Orange can be moved as indicated to make 'Filler' stronger trading strong/weak pair for mediocre/mediocre one.
  
• Blue is possible, but harder to defend than the red from previous version. Could be moved to '?!', but that's really pushing it.
  
• Green as previously.
  

[Sareln]

Here's the tentative plan we'll roll with for now.

Several very good assumptions for now:

1. I will not be pink-dotting the aggressive/organized/call of the horde Clan. I don't have a death wish.
   
2. I want the mirror in 2nd ring for the +3 hammers and the guaranteed lock.
   
3. I want to place my first city towards the clan.
   
4. I need a good coastal location not in contention.
   
5. All things subject to change on horses/copper.