[SPOILER] Asoka of the Vikings (Nakor & Gaspar)

[Ellimist]

First Locke, who I include just because I love his tone. He can't possibly be a native English speaker, but his bluntness is appreciated

+1

[Nakor]

Ok, made the deal with Locke.
Another turn.. Granary's all over the place now.
WB done and started scouting.

Here's our boxed-in land:



And our F5:

[Gaspar]

So just spitballing here...

If plako responds aggressively again, what if we just take our pithy 6 axe army, steal his worker, and choke his city nearest us to oblivion? I mean really, screw him. This NAP as unbreakable covenant bit is a bit over the top, in my opinion. Maybe we misplayed the beginning a bit - certainly we should have prioritized nearby scouting a bit more than we did, certainly we should have signed a less friendly NAP w/plako knowing as we did that he had a hostile neighbor. But he's just been a dick. He signed a deliberately deceptive settling agreement, tries to buy us out of a chunk of that land, and then threatens us as though he has tanks to our spears. We can't win a war with plako, per se. But we can militarily ensure he can't settle the north anytime soon. The longer we wait, the sooner he has cats or HAs and the sooner we have no chance of breaking him down. Anyway, everyone already thinks you're a bloodythirsty backstabber, may as well actually do something to get the reputation.
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Given that there's zero chance of that happening, where do we go from here? This Mexican standoff with plako is ultimately going to result in him militarizing the region slightly more, and we realistically can't settle to the north anyway, even if we negotiate more favorable terms. Any city we plant there will be virtually indefensible. So the best reasonable option right now is to get more workers out, put cottages everywhere there's enough food to support them, and expand as much as possible into the limited land we do have. (That horse city will be garbage, sadly.) If we do a really, really good job of that... we'll have lots of profitable cities for plako to take in 50-75 turns.

I guess what I'm saying is, we DID mess up our opening a bit with crummy scouting. We DID make a bad play in our early diplo. We DID probably choose a bad Leader/Civ combination. We ARE basically in last place of all Civs who didn't get themselves stomped early by an Axe rush. We have to ask two questions - Can we get ourselves out of this mess? If the answer is yes, then we have to start making bold plays now to save our skin. If the answer is no, then we have to ask ourselves whether or not we want to make some sort of impact before losing.

Obviously, the immediate concern is our miserable tech rate. We've got pottery and are teching writing. Those two moves are the first steps to improving the situation. But then after that - how do we A: Get more land and B: Avoid the inevitable beatdown from plako? Gut feeling is that we need to get that work boat to scout North of that peak tile that blocks our way north in that direction. Maybe we can reprise plako's move from PB2 and relocate. Grab Sailing after writing and build a fleet of galleys to escort settlers up there. There's a lot of value to being first. Its probably indefensible, but what do we have to lose? We're going to lose anyway if things keep going as they are. We need to do something bold to try and mitigate our crappy start.

I don't know, I'm talking complete nonsense probably. But I think we have to do something. If its attack plako, if its expand via water, if its something else I haven't thought of, I don't know. But if we just sit and expand normally, we'll get completely boxed in and be so far behind we can't possibly catch up.

Thoughts, Nakor?

[Lewwyn]

He signed a deliberately deceptive settling agreement, tries to buy us out of a chunk of that land, and then threatens us as though he has tanks to our spears.

I'd be careful with that characterization. Later in this post you admit to have maybe played the opening badly, but I don't think you can rationalize bloodlust with saying he tricked you with the settling agreement. He had as little scouting knowledge as you so its impossible to say it was deceptive. If anything the fact that he had an unruly neighbor meant he was willing to sign a settling agreement in YOUR favor. If you think its unfair to you, then it's entirely your fault as you held the upper hand in those negotiations.

I'm not saying that you're not entitled to fight your way out of the situation you are in, just be aware that you can't really fault plako for anything he's done.

I guess what I'm saying is, we DID mess up our opening a bit with crummy scouting. We DID make a bad play in our early diplo. We DID probably choose a bad Leader/Civ combination. We ARE basically in last place of all Civs who didn't get themselves stomped early by an Axe rush. We have to ask two questions - Can we get ourselves out of this mess? If the answer is yes, then we have to start making bold plays now to save our skin. If the answer is no, then we have to ask ourselves whether or not we want to make some sort of impact before losing.

This I can definitely get behind. Recognizing the situation and being proactive about it is the only way to play. I look forward to seeing what you guys decide to do. And FWIW I think that the relocation idea has merit. Galley up some settlers and start settling above could very well be a way to contain plako's expansion. Granted it makes it difficult to defend, but then doesn't that work both ways? It also makes it difficult for plako to defend if you can galley a force north of him as well. If you block him north there's a chance he'll galley his own settler north of you as well, but who knows for sure.

Question is, do you want to go militarily at plako and grind yourselves at each other, which also hurts your rep, or go with a crazy settle problem and that may leave you a bit divided but with more peacefully attained land. I also don't think your diplo options are all too negated yet. Your options are not all rosy but there are options.

[Gaspar]

First off, thanks for the post Lewwyn. Nice to see someone to pop in here with a few thoughts. The lurker thread should be a good chuckle when our game is over, I'd guess a few folks have had less happy thoughts for us in there.

I'd be careful with that characterization. Later in this post you admit to have maybe played the opening badly, but I don't think you can rationalize bloodlust with saying he tricked you with the settling agreement. He had as little scouting knowledge as you so its impossible to say it was deceptive. If anything the fact that he had an unruly neighbor meant he was willing to sign a settling agreement in YOUR favor. If you think its unfair to you, then it's entirely your fault as you held the upper hand in those negotiations.

I guess I don't exactly remember when plako found us, so I don't precisely know what he knew when we signed the agreement. If you say he had the same knowledge as us, I'd guess I'm just misremembering and it was fairly early. So maybe I've been a bit harsh on him. If that is indeed the case, I also wouldn't break the NAP, as I'd only break my word if I felt the other player involved was dishonest in signing it.

Lewwyn's other comment begs two questions. Nakor, do you think we have the resources to make a naval settling play in the NW? And what CAN we get from plako diplomatically? Can we negotiate anything positive while ceding him the territory in the current settling agreement and signing a NAP extension? I don't even know what we would could ask for? We're not in position to turn around and look for tribute from him, we might have him beat on soldier points but he could no doubt turn around and pump out more units than we can based on his superior demographics. We can't ask for gold as nobody has Currency (or at least I believe nobody does, I haven't actually looked for it recently.) The NAP itself isn't a prize because ultimately it helps him more than us. I suppose we could ask for an absurdly long NAP and eventual military support against any aggression in return for him retaining settling rights. That's always grey though, its been proven time and again that military support is in the eye of the beholder.

I guess I'll leave it to you, Nakor, as I'm about out of interesting ideas.

[Nakor]

Thanks for your input, Lewwyn. Gaspar is just doing his thing... :neenernee

Gaspar, I read all the mails back with Plako and we agreed that we could change our border deal if new information came to pass. So that we're talking about it again is not an issue and in agreement with our deal. We'll just have to see what Plako comes up with. If we can't get a good deal with him, then yes, backfilling and going overseas is a good option.
We have the production potential, if not the research.

So for now, I suggest we wait a bit, scout with our WB, build Granaries - Workers - Axes - Settlers to expand. Tech Sailing or Archery - HBR and then either expand overseas or fight.

This game has just begun and it aint over till the fat lady sings....

[Gaspar]

Thanks for your input, Lewwyn. Gaspar is just doing his thing... :neenernee

What, me? My thing? I am a perfectly reasonable partner to have!

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Thanks for putting up with me, Nakor.

[Nakor]

Plako want a map with our proposal. What shall we do?

[Lewwyn]

Sounds good guys, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Ellimist]

Use "bare map" mode with resource bubbles and crop out everything except the area you're talking about. So don't include your tech/city/etc. info.