Well, Mackoti completed the Pyramids this turn. No chance of us getting it now.
I decided this should at least make for a decent reason to get in contact with SleepingMoogle about the Hanging Gardens, so I did so.
Summary: I went with the assumption that Moogle is still planning on building the Hanging Gardens (given that he probably researched Maths last turn, and mentioned the wonder to us in his initial diplomacy). I figured projecting confidence is probably the best way to encourage him not to compete with us, and offering him generous compensation in return for letting us get out a few extra cities should be a win-win for both of us. I slightly exaggerated my confidence about getting the wonder - in reality I'm not completely sure we could outrace him if it came down to it, but I do think we'd have a pretty good chance. We can technically rush it out in just a few turns, but it wouldn't be very efficient for us.
Anyway, hopefully we'll get a positive response.
Hi SleepingMoogle,
No worries, happy to help you with meeting new nations, especially considering all the help you've given us. Glad to be able to return the favour.
Things are indeed progressing peacefully for us for the moment... although the same can't be said for our neighbours! As you've probably noticed, last turn Mackoti attacked Luddite through a double move - and while that's now been reloaded, I'm guessing it's pretty likely things will erupt there again in short order. Apparently Mackoti broke a non-aggression pact at the same time as trying to do the double move, which is a bit of a low blow. You might want to be careful of him in the future... we certainly will be. At least the new tensions between Mackoti and Luddite are good news for both of us, since it pretty much confirms that both of our neighbours won't be bothering either of us for a while.
By the way, I recall that you mentioned a vague interest in the Hanging Gardens a while ago. Is that still the case, or have you changed your mind? I thought this'd be a good time to drop you a line just in case you still have any plans regarding it. You'll probably be aware that Mackoti just finished the Pyramids this turn, and you might recall that earlier we expressed an interest in that wonder. However, now that the Pyramids have been taken, we'll obviously have to divert our efforts elsewhere. We've decided to switch our focus to the Hanging Gardens, as we've already got all the necessary pieces in place for a very quick build there, plus we have a decent enough number of cities to get a reasonable benefit from the wonder.
We were fortunate that we had not finished any chops prior to this turn, so we have a huge amount of hammers available that are ready to be diverted to the Hanging Gardens in an instant. We can thus build the wonder in extremely short order (a mere couple of turns from now) if we want to. Furthermore, from our analysis of Civstats and the demographics, we're confident that no-one could beat us to our earliest possible build time. (You seem to be our closest possible competitor - and even assuming Maths was the tech you finished last turn, we'd still get the wonder faster than you.)
Anyway, as you made mention of the Hanging Gardens a while ago, I just thought I'd let you know about this in case you were still thinking about building the wonder. I wouldn't want you to end up wasting any forest chops and/or whips on a wonder you didn't realise we were building, when you could better spend them elsewhere.
There's also one other thing - we have six cities at the moment, but we'd like to take a few extra turns to build a couple more cities before completing the Hanging Gardens. However, this would require knowing that we wouldn't risk losing the wonder to our closest potential competitor. Would you be willing to agree not to compete with us for the Hanging Gardens, in return for some other benefit? Perhaps a lack of competition from us on some other wonder, or maybe a free resource trade once we have trade routes? I'm sure we could figure something out. In this scenario we'd obviously have to trust your word that you wouldn't try to build the Hanging Gardens anyway with the knowledge that we were delaying it, but I'm confident that you wouldn't do such a thing if you agreed not to.
So, what do you say? If you'd rather not make any agreement and instead want to race us for the Hanging Gardens, we can do that... but I'm very confident that our nation will win such a race. Racing would however be detrimental to both of us, since we'd have a smaller number of cities (6) at the time the wonder was built, and you'd lose a bunch of hammers that could have been put to a more useful purpose.
On the other hand, you could agree to help us out by not building the wonder while we delay it a few turns to get a couple more cities. In return, you'd save yourself a lot of lost hammers, as well as getting the additional benefit of a generous deal from us in return for your help. That way, we both win - you can divert your hammers to more useful projects while potentially getting a free resource or uncontested wonder from us later, and we can get a couple more cities out before finishing the Hanging Gardens. Seems like a great outcome for both of us!
Anyway, let us know what you think. Sorry about the length of this message, I tend to ramble on a bit I guess.
Hope to hear back from you about this potential deal soon.
Nakor was interested in knowing more about the war between Mackoti and Luddite.
Hey LP,
Mostly being a voyeur here, but any word on what caused the fighting up yonder? Always good to understand casus belli, it can impact diplomacy down the road. We haven't had much contact with the Dutch, but that's mostly a function of Cartographical concerns. Anyway, I figured you might have better info as a more neutral party than if we get it straight from the horse's mouths.
Anyway, no big deal, but any info you provide would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Gaspar
Didn't see a problem with that, so told him what I knew.
Hi Nakor,
No worries, I can understand the feeling of wanting to know more.
Unfortunately I think I don't really know much more than you do about this situation. I didn't have a unit in the area of conflict so I didn't see what went on.
What little I do know is that Mackoti attempted to declare war on Luddite via a double move over turns 76-77, which was then reloaded. I'm not sure what units (if any) were taken/destroyed by the double move, but I assume it had to be something substantial to warrant the reload. Apparently the war may have been over a choke point between them.
It's also worth mentioning that apparently Mackoti also broke a non-aggression pact by declaring war - in addition to the double move - according to Luddite. All in all, it doesn't seem like he's a particularly honourable player... we'll certainly be very cautious about our dealings with him in future. Probably an idea for you to be careful with him as well. At least neither of us share a border with him, so we shouldn't have to worry about sneak invasions from him (for now, at least). But it's never nice to have an untrustworthy player around in a game, so I suspect Mackoti will have to be dealt with at some point by someone.
Anyway, that's about all I know. Hope it's of some use to you.
Great news about the NAP, by the way. Should prove very beneficial for both of us! Will be nice when we can get trade routes as well, since we already have the Open Borders in place to take advantage of them. Will probably still be a while until that happens, but it'll be good when we get there.
Ran into Locke's borders down south, and there doesn't seem to be any other way through to the west, so figured I'd check how receptive he is to opening borders.
Hi Locke,
As you probably will have noticed, one of our exploring units has just found your borders down in the south (from Nakor's side). From what we've seen, it doesn't look like there's any way further west without passing through your land. Would you be willing to grant us passage (open borders) so we can pass through? We'll understand if you'd rather not, but it would be nice if you could.
It would also be great to have any suggestions on the best directions for our unit to head - i.e. where to go to avoid dead ends. We haven't met Adlain's borders yet... can we reach him straight west of you?
Let me know if I can help you out in any way. Hope you're progressing alright in your search for Luddite - feel free to contact me if you need any further directions there.
Went fishing for some information from Mackoti and Ioan76:
Hi Mackoti,
Just thought I'd send through my congratulations on getting the Pyramids. Well done on that - they'll obviously be a great help to you.
I noticed you've reached six cities as well - quite impressive! Plako's still way out ahead with eight and counting, of course... a bit of a worry.
Seems like you've been having a bit of trouble with Luddite recently, judging by that war declaration (the one that was undone). If you want to let us know anything about it, we'd be interested to hear what happened. We're a bit far away to do anything at the moment ourselves, but it'd be good to know more. Luddite hasn't said much about it.
Still looking forward to when we can get trade routes. Hopefully that'll be sooner rather than later.
Kind regards,
Lord Parkin
Here's their side of the story:
Hi - you Mighty Lord Parkin,
Ioan here - I'll try to briefly inform you about the strange situation with Luddite :
- He tried to "manipulate" us during negotiation regarding our common settlement-borders - more precisely he had a settler already on the way to disputed area while delaying any precise agreement.
- Macedon became nervous when he spotted an undefended settler + worker in that area while there was negotiation on going and, in order to prevent such a "homesteading" action, disregard both the existing NAP and the rule which prevent declaration of war and attacked in the same round/move and captured those adventurers with a chariot.
- Luddite protested against such a loss ( for which he seems totally unprepared anyway ) and asked for a game-reload.
Not sure what I was expecting from SleepingMoogle, but it wasn't this. Instead of a confirmation, declination or counter-offer, we got a barrage of insults and threats.
Is this really the same guy who placidly let his Aggressive Great Lighthouse-building neighbour grab Open Borders practically as soon as they were available? Seems like a completely different person to me, if I didn't know better...
LordParkin,
Let us dispense with pleasantries for a moment and get right down to the heart of the matter.
Up until your last message, you have made no mention of the Hanging Gardens. In fact, we are the only ones who brought it up, and we did so in our very first message. I will include the relevant lines below in case you have forgotten:
You:
Right now we don't have any wonders planned for the immediate future, but we've been considering going for either the Pyramids or Great Library sometime in mid-term future.
Us:
Anyway, we are considering the Hanging Gardens right now (being Babylon and all), so it doesn't look like we'll be competing for wonders anytime soon.
This was then met by an affirmative response from you.
Now, it is unfortunate that you lost out on the Pyramids, but that is not something we had any involvement in. We noted that it was not a wonder we intended to build, and we held true to our word. It is disappointing to see you make an attempt for the Hanging Gardens rather than the Great Library (which you claimed to be interested in chasing) because it comes across as
1) Deliberate intent to deceive us, which calls into question the honesty of your previous communications,
2) A childish reaction to not getting what you wanted, and
3) The misconception that you can dictate how the Tribes of Somnus spend their resources.
We are not about to change our plans, and are confident of landing the Gardens before you will, regardless of how confident you try to make yourself sound. It is you who should worry about wasting hammers, and should reconsider going for the Library instead. It might even have the added benefit of regaining our trust.
-SleepingMoogle
Patriarch of the first Tribe of Somnus
The only logical reason I can think of for his reaction is that he's attempting a bluff. However, it seems a bit much to degenerate into insults solely for that purpose. Either that or he's simply a bit crazy... refusing to even discuss some kind of mutually beneficial deal with a nation far away, while apparently quite happily giving his closest rival a huge amount of commerce for free. Maybe he just has a soft spot for Rego, or something? Don't know, but it seems pretty illogical to me.
I doubt the situation can be salvaged based on the sheer insanity and hostility of his first response, but I'm doing my best. He's clearly way off-base in most of his accusations, and seems to have a bit of a hot head (unless it's an act), but we'll see what happens. Hopefully we can at least move on to semi-rational discussion.
All the things I wrote below are pretty much my honest thoughts on the matter, though I've slightly blurred the timeline of some events out of necessity.
Hi SleepingMoogle,
With all due respect, I'm rather confused and really don't quite understand your reaction here. Perhaps there's been a misunderstanding somewhere.
Neither of us have mentioned wonders since our initial diplomacy, where we expressed our potential future intentions. Our understanding was that this was simply both of us expressing our interests at the time - we both talked about "considering" wonders, neither of us said anything like "we're definitely building this, please do not build this". Nor did either of us ever agree to anything along the lines of "we will never under any circumstances build these wonders". I'm not trying to be dishonest (as you seem to imply), I'm just stating the facts. You never said the Hanging Gardens were rightfully yours just like I never said the Pyramids were rightfully mine... and yet you now act like that was the case all along. I'm a bit perplexed, to be honest.
Neither of us had made an outright claim to the wonders we'd mentioned, so I understood that until we talked further about wonders, there was no reason why you couldn't build the Pyramids or Great Library or why we couldn't build the Hanging Gardens. However, we did have what I understood as an agreement of common courtesy, in that if either of us wanted to build a wonder the other had mentioned, it would be doing the right thing to let them know. I thought I was acting honourably by extending you that courtesy at the earliest opportunity, and yet you seem to treat me as if I'd slapped you across the face. You hadn't made an agreement with us that the Hanging Gardens were yours, so theoretically I could have gone ahead and built them under the radar without ever mentioning anything to you. However, THAT would have been disrespectful. I didn't want to do that.
Instead, I let you know immediately about my plans regarding the Hanging Gardens. The pieces were already in place because Maths was necessary for the +50% chops into any wonder we built regardless. The Pyramids had always been the first priority, but when Mackoti took them the plan had to change. I don't see how immediate notification to you that we were confirming a wonder on our build queue could in any way be interpreted as dishonest. Perhaps your interpretation of our earlier discussion about wonders was that there was some agreement where you had an absolute rightful claim to the Hanging Gardens, but that is not at all what happened. I repeat - we never had such an agreement, neither of us had any rightful claims to wonders we'd talked about considering.
You made mention of the Great Library - the reason for us no longer considering that wonder is fairly simple. We've recently been informed by Luddite that he intends to use a Forge-gained Great Engineer to get the Library, which would arrive around turn 90. There's absolutely no way we can possibly compete with that, so I'm sure you understand why we can no longer consider this wonder a possibility.
Mackoti getting the Pyramids had nothing to do with either of us, of course. That isn't the point. The point is that it's quite unfair to interpret a single short discussion of "considering" wonders several weeks back as an explicit agreement of "you may NEVER EVER build this no matter what, it's rightfully ours". We never made such an agreement, and it's not fair to pretend that we did. Effectively saying "that's been ours all along and you are a backstabbing bastard" seems rather over the top.
To respond directly to your concerns:
1. We have always been honest and upfront in our communications with you, and I don't understand how you can think we're trying to deceive you. We have in fact done the exact opposite by informing you immediately of our intention to work on this wonder, with no beating around the bush.
2. Name calling is rather a disappointing overreaction. You seem to imply that I am somehow taking something that is irrevertably and rightfully yours out of spite. None of this is true. My decision is a calm and rational reaction to the fact that I can no longer work on one wonder. Switching focus to another wonder that we don't have an agreement to avoid is logical, and not at all intended to be a stab at you. Indeed, until now you'd never said you felt so strongly about the Hanging Gardens, so how were we to know?
3. It's a complete misinterpretation to think that we're somehow trying to "tell you what to do". We're simply stating the facts (that we are confident we cannot be beaten to the Hanging Gardens if we race for it), and based on those facts are trying to work out an optimal outcome for both of us. Please understand that we are truly trying to reach a mutually beneficial outcome for both of us. However, your hot-headed reaction leaves you liable to make a major wasteful mistake and turn down huge benefits you could otherwise get.
I guess there's one other possibility for why you're acting this way, which may be to try to "scare us off" going for the wonder. If so, it seems a rather unfair tactic to immediately become overtly hostile and try to claim that we broke some agreement we never made. More can be achieved with cool heads than harsh biting anger, after all.
With that out of the way, I do hope we can discuss things more civilly from now on.
The facts:
* The Pyramids are gone
* The Great Library cannot be contested due to Luddite's Great Engineer.
* You seem to understand that our earlier discussion entitles you to complete undisputed rights surrounding the Hanging Gardens in the present day. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
* I understand that our earlier discussion meant exactly what it said; we were considering options for future wonders, not staking absolute claims.
* I immediately notified you about the Hanging Gardens as soon as I settled on building it, out of courtesy.
* You somehow interpreted this courtesy as a brutal backstab, when this was never close to the truth.
* You state you are confident that you can land the Gardens first; however...
* I honestly don't see any way you can beat us in a race to the Gardens, even if you already have both Maths and Masonry. (And I don't think you do.)
* One of us will waste a lot of hammers if we are hot-headed and don't think this through rationally; I'm pretty certain it'll be you if that eventuates.
* Even though I'm sure we can beat you in a race regardless, I've offered generous one-way deals that only benefit you in return for your cooperation.
* You've made no such counter-offers, instead only displaying hostility and anger to the mere idea of doing anything we might suggest - even though it would be greatly beneficial for you to work something out with us.
* You claim that I have broken my word; I vehemently oppose this as there was never any agreement to break, and I have always been honest in my dealings with you (and every other nation).
Now, I'm open to level-headed suggestions about how we can work this out. But please bear in mind that further anger and insults will get us nowhere. It's also worth bearing in mind that attempting a failed rush at a wonder when you have very few cities is rather damaging, and not particularly helpful even if you succeed.
Wow, that's quite a response from SleepingMoogle. For what it's worth, I don't read his message as a tactic to bluff us off the Hanging Gardens. It reads like he's genuinely offended. It makes sense, since it's so easy for miscommunications to happen when your only contact is text-based. Without body language we miss a lot of nuance and it becomes very easy to read/hear what you want to. I might have phrased my response to him differently to put him at ease, but I think what you wrote sums up our POV nicely.
It's surprising to me that a player would break a NAP. The general impression I had gotten was that those were fairly ironclad around here except in extraordinary circumstances. Still, it's a useful fact to keep in mind in regards to our own military buildup.
What does Luddite say about his war with Mackoti? Have you asked him directly? I'm curious to know if war will again be declared, or if it is whether or not it will be sustained. Ioan's message made it sound like it was an impulsive decision to grab a settler and a worker, and not part of their larger gameplan.
SleepingMoogle's response doesn't seem that surprising to me. In fact it's not so far from what I said in post #388:
Irgy Wrote:Just one question. SleepingMoogle (I think it was him anyway), in response to your suggestion to co-ordinate on wonders to avoid lost hammers, told you in good faith that he was after the gardens. You're now using that info to inform your efforts to outrace him to it. Are you concerned that this is going to significantly upset him when he finds out?
The only difference is that he read maybe a smidgeon more intent into it than what you really had.
Anyway, keep up the good work, it's what needs to be done. A spectacular response there I have to say. It's great being on this end of your diplomacy for a change.
In all honesty I hate having to communicate by walls of text when it comes to a situation like this. It just doesn't work as well and is more liable to frustrate people than reach a solution. However, until now I haven't had any choice because SleepingMoogle has never been available through any kind of chat program. I'm trying to get him to change that situation soon.
I'm still keen to chat next time you're available. Sending walls of text back and forth is a very inefficient method of conducting diplomacy when there's something to be worked out, because you can't respond instantly and point by point to someone's concerns, question answers and bring up secondary concerns, and so on. I would really appreciate it if we could arrange some time to chat. When are you available? I'm around most of the time today (here the next 3 hours from this message, away the following 2, then back for another 3, away for another 2, and finally around for 4-8 hours).
SleepingMoogle's latest reply was, if anything, even more bizarre. He also seems to be veering dangerously close to the realm of personal insults, blurring the line between the player and the person. I can't say I'm particularly impressed with that.
Lord Parkin,
If the previous message was harsh, it was because I was preparing to leave when I noticed the message and had very little time to compose a response. The general tone of the message matched my initial reaction though, and I am still not at all amused. While I will concede that we did not have an ironclad contract about wonders, we both implied what we wanted and you did not object when I mentioned interest in the Gardens. Nor did you mention your possible interest up until now when you easily could have. If you had I'm certain our communications would be a lot more friendly than they are now.
Anyway, if you feel that you can ignore informal agreements just like that, then how am I to trust you with anything unless it is written down, signed in blood, and legally binding? If we were to verbally agree not to chase each other's girl for the prom, would you break that agreement simply because it wasn't written down when it turns out your first choice already picked another date? Friends would not do that to each other. And yet that is exactly what you just did.
You were beaten to the Pyramids because you delayed it too much. Mackoti and Ioan were able to finish them without access to Slavery, and most likely without Mathematics, apparently before you even started. And that was your mistake, not ours. In your next message to us, you basically state that since you were beaten to it, you're instead going to take the wonder we stated our interest in for yourself. In return, you offer compensation that is all but worthless. You can be glib and dress it up all you want, but the wall of text, apologetic words and smileys don't disguise that fact.
As stated before, we are not backing down. And since you brought it up, we don't feel we need to offer you any more compensation than what we already gave you: our word not to go for the Great Library or the Pyramids, as agreed during our initial exhange of messages. Since this is similar to what you offered yourself, we are confident you'll find this agreeable.
If you still decide to turn it into a race, then that's your decision. Don't blame us for the lost hammers though.
Pleasant dreams,
-SleepingMoogle
Patriarch of the first tribe of Somnus
So, I wrote another long reply to try to cover the points again. Probably rather inefficient and pointless I guess... I really wish he'd get on chat. This whole thing could be sorted out so much quicker and with less effort if we just talked face to face, but he seems to be avoiding me for the moment.
Once again I distorted the timeline of some events slightly out of necessity, but otherwise this is the honest truth.
Hi SleepingMoogle,
I've said before that we told you about the Hanging Gardens as soon as we confirmed our decision to go for them. I don't know what more we can do to convince you of that, because apparently you've already made up your mind that we're "evil" (for some reason?) regardless of what we say. The Pyramids were always our number one priority until Mackoti took them - and had Mackoti been a turn or two later in starting them, we would certainly have got them.
As for your bizarre comparison to "prom", I'm not sure what I can say except... uh, games are different to real life? You're getting awfully close to personal attacks here, blurring the line between the player and the person. I'm a bit surprised at that - it's just a game, dude, and this isn't that big a deal.
Perhaps a comparison within the game would be more appropriate. Should you be able to expect that you won't get attacked if you've only ever had casual conversations about peace, and have never actually signed a NAP with your rival? I think not. In the same way, you can't expect that any wonder that you've brought up in the course of casual conversation is automatically yours, without some sort of actual agreement. And once again, for the record, we've always been upfront and honest with you about everything, as evidenced by us beginning this whole discussion in the first place.
I just don't understand your logic. You accuse us of using your one sentence from long ago about considering the Hanging Gardens against you - which we didn't even do, as I've explained - and yet you do far worse by taking the large amount of information we've just given you and attempting to stab us in the back with it. We told you in good faith that we were building the Hanging Gardens as soon as we confirmed our decision, and you responded by badmouthing us and immediately trying to use that information against us. If I were not certain that we'd get the Hanging Gardens regardless of whatever you tried to do at this point, I'd think that was a pretty low blow on your part. Maybe it is anyway.
We've basically said: "Hi, we're building this wonder you once expressed interested in, what can we offer you to make it worth your while to not compete if we delay it?"
You've basically replied: "Screw you, we'd rather sabotage and cripple our empire than ever discuss any kind of beneficial deal with you."
Forgive me if I find that somewhat illogical. Even more so than giving vast amounts of free commerce to an Aggressive Great Lighthouse builder whose only close land neighbour is you. (Seriously, you're brutally attacking us - a distant nation - over a mutually beneficial deal proposition, while letting your immediate neighbour and greatest threat become far more dangerous for no apparent reason. But I digress.)
Just to be clear - as it seems you may have forgotten - our primary build date for the Hanging Gardens really is a no-contest. We're already ahead of you in that race, and if you force our hand (as you seem to be trying to do), you will not beat us and will only hurt yourselves by trying.
This entire conversation has been all about the secondary build date we're looking at, which would involve us delaying the Hanging Gardens a few turns to a point where you might otherwise be able to compete (so that we can build a couple more cities).
Here's what you could do at this point:
* Sabotage your nation by insisting on rushing out the Hanging Gardens as fast as you can, which still will not be fast enough to beat our primary build date. (And even if, as you seem to believe, you succeeded in completing the wonder - which you wouldn't - it wouldn't be worth the cost to you anyway, rushing it out with such a small number of cities.) Result: We'd end up with the wonder, and you wouldn't end up with any deal to compensate your failed attempt. Okay for us - crippling for you.
* Continue to badmouth us while quietly resigning defeat on the race, instead trying to get us to build the wonder more quickly and less efficiently through lack of info. As with the above option though, this would still leave us with the wonder, and you without any kind of compensation for your loss. Same result: okay for us - crippling for you.
* Talk reasonably with us about what you feel would be a fair deal in return for not competing with us on the wonder. This would allow us to complete the wonder at our secondary build date (with more cities), and you would get a great deal in return. Win-win for both of us.
The Hanging Gardens isn't a particularly useful wonder to you anyway, especially with so few cities. I still don't understand why you don't see that. What's the point in sacrificing everything for a failed attempt at a wonder that won't do much for you anyway? There are plenty of more useful options out there. The Parthenon, the Temple of Artemis, the Great Wall, the Statue of Zeus, and Shwedagon Paya are all early wonders which are still available. All are equal to or cheaper in cost to the Aqueduct + Hanging Gardens (for an Industrious nation), and almost all would benefit you much more.
The Parthenon, for instance, would be excellent for you with your cheap Libraries and early Scientists. The Statue of Zeus, on the other hand, would be great for deterring your ever-expanding nearby Aggressive neighbour from thinking about invading you. Shwedagon Paya would do a similar thing by enabling access to earlier Theocracy, again deterring potential invaders (and you even have the Gold to speed it up). The Temple of Artemis would allow you to somewhat compete with Rego in trade routes, and would net a whole bunch of great person points in one go. Finally, the Great Wall - despite its nerfing through the rules of this game - would still give great passive espionage benefits through a Great Spy or two, and another reason to deter potential invaders from fighting with you (faster Great Generals). Plus it's dirt cheap at this point.
You could simply say the word and have us not contest you on any of these wonders... rather than making a failed attempt at the Hanging Gardens and getting nothing in return. Or we could discuss resource trades - for instance, I could supply free health to effectively give you half the benefit of the wonder. I'm open to negotiation, if you'd only be willing to listen and discuss rather than insult and threaten.
Either way, can we please talk calmly and rationally about this soon - ideally via chat. Maintaining this kamikaze attitude isn't going to get you anywhere, and hurts you far more than it hurts us.
Locke seems okay with Open Borders. He does want to be able to explore our borders in return at some later date, but that shouldn't be a problem.
That is no problem. If you want to send request for OB we will accept. Just so long as you give us same chance to scout if we have warrior near you later. We have a couple of units poking around in north. :D
There is only one path west. Through our borders. If you go through our land and keep going west you will reach Adlain. He is like 20-25 tiles west of your unit.
Locke
