Nakor contacted me recently about our Settler heading down to the Pig-Gold site. He seemed to be hoping that we weren't going for that site, although I think he knew there wasn't anything else we'd be going for.
Basically, he tried to convince us that the site is closer to his capital than it is to ours (which it really isn't - it's about as close to halfway as you could get). Then he tried to argue that Plako and him had an agreement on how to split the land south of us. (That's nice for them, but what about us?) Anyway, I could have taken offence to that, but decided to ignore it.
Hey Lord Parkin,
I'll send our warrior down south again to unfog the rest of the landbridge.
We are thinking about settling a site on that landbridge near gold and pigs. I think it's closer to our capital then to yours, so I don't think we want to settle the same spot, just want to let you know.
It's on the west side of the landbridge and on the land Plako and we agreed is for us to settle. He get's the eastern part.
Kind regards,
Nakor
Here was my reply. Looking back reminded me of Senseless's post... I probably used a few too many smilies, will try to cut back on that.
Anyway, I tried to be kind but firm in my response (ignoring the part about Plako and him deciding how to split our land so as not to get hot-headed). That land is halfway between us, and we're the ones who got a Settler there first, so I see no reason for us to concede it to them. We got to a neutral location first, fair and square... that's all there is to it. Giving up neutral land you're about to settle when you got there first is just silly, unless you're very very scared of your rival for some reason.
Hi Nakor,
Okay, good luck to your Warrior on his trade route trek.
I noticed your Work Boat down south, so no doubt you've seen our little settling party. We are indeed intending on settling to claim the Pigs and Gold, although we can make sure to shift our intended settlement to the furtherest north location possible (2N of the Gold) to least interfere with any plans you may have around the lake-canal area, if you'd like. (Just as long as you'd agree not to attempt to out-culture the Gold with a city within 1-2 tiles of it - which there'd be no point in doing anyway because such a city wouldn't have access to food.)
Anyway, we hope this won't be a problem for you, as the Pig-Gold site we're intending on settling really is equidistant between us: 17-18 tiles from both of our capitals. Can't get much closer to equal than that.
Plus, we really do need this city as a forward base against Plako. You know we've got a very long-term NAP with you, so we're not at all intending on threatening you with this city placed (exactly ) halfway between us. We do, however, intend on dealing to Plako at some point, and establishing a good southern base for our empire will be critical to that.
If you have an intention to settle the lake-canal south of the Pig-Gold site, we don't have a problem in ceding that to you - since that area genuinely is closer to you than us (as opposed to this equidistant Pig-Gold site). Just please don't include the Gold in the BFC of such a city... which you wouldn't want to do anyway as doing that would cause the city to have no food.
Hope this clears up the matter. Let us know if you have any other issues or questions.
Kind regards,
Lord Parkin
So, I guess Nakor may be a little annoyed temporarily about losing the spot he thought would automatically be his, but hopefully he should get over it. (If he really wanted it, he should have expanded in that direction faster.) Anyway, temporary goodwill is just not worth turning around a settler from a spot that is - in all fairness - as far from him as it is from us.
Had a brief in-game chat with Nakor. He wasn't exactly overjoyed about us settling the Pig-Gold site, but seemed to want to just accept it and move on. Good enough, I guess. He doesn't seem the type to want to break a NAP to fight an unwinnable war during his expansion phase, especially over such a minor issue. I guess we might want to check the waters more carefully when turn 160 starts getting nearer, although I don't know if he'd hold a grudge that long over such a minor matter.
Chatted briefly with Luddite too... nothing much revealed, except that I confirmed he's #1 in both production and power. Seems like things could be brewing between him and Mackoti soon. Of course, it's vaguely possible he could be considering striking at us instead, but I doubt it. I'll put out some sentries anyway to check. We'd easily be able to bat him off with enough warning... Vultures are nothing but a tasty snack to War Chariots. Pretty sure he'll be aiming for Mackoti though.
Also had a brief chat with Plako. He expressed an interest in trading great people down the track - specifically a Great Prophet for a Great Scientist. Obviously he's keen on building his Jewish Shrine. I said we'd consider it, although if we already have a capital Academy by that point (and we should) then a simple swap wouldn't really be worth it to us. Especially since we want our own holy city and Shrine in the future. Still, could be a possibility to keep in mind.
Finished Polytheism, switched to 0% research and started on Currency. It'll be a little while before we finish it, but when we do it'll improve our situation considerably.
Founded Acinonyx (our Horse city), taking us up to #10 ahead of Plako. Chatted to Plako in-game and it seems he's still ~4 turns away from founding his #10... so we'll genuinely be ahead of him in cities for a few turns. A nice achievement.
Acinonyx is working on a Granary. I'm thinking a Lighthouse there at some point afterwards would be quite nice due to making four 3-food lakes and a 3-food Whale available.
Pantherinae is producing another Worker. After that, we'll move on to chopping out either another Worker or a Granary.
Started on the Temple of Artemis at the capital; we'll divert 3 chops into it over the next few turns.
Tigris is finishing off a Worker, and will then chop out a Settler for the Silver city.
Magadan's finishing off an Axeman, and then it's probably time for something else. How about either a Lighthouse or the Moai Statues? (We've got 3 chops available to divert there.) Thoughts?
Evermore is finishing off its Granary, and will then chop out a Library.
Felidae is completing a Worker, after which it will finish its Granary and begin on a Library.
Pardus, our new Ivory city, is working on a Granary while the first Ivory is hooked up to our empire.
Finally, Leo - the Pig-Gold city and our southernmost settlement for the time being - is also working on a Granary. The Worker there is hooking up the Pigs, then will road to the Gold and hook that up as soon as the borders expand.
Lord Parkin Wrote:Magadan's finishing off an Axeman, and then it's probably time for something else. How about either a Lighthouse or the Moai Statues? (We've got 3 chops available to divert there.) Thoughts?
Can't imagine why you'd want Moai before a lighthouse, hardly worth working sea tiles without the 2 food. But yes, building them both seems like a good idea to me.
You can really see stonehenge paying off with these new cities. Pig-gold would have taken a good while to build a monument for instance.
What's your religion plan at the moment? I see you're getting Currency before Code of Laws. Makes sense for the trade routes and the pre-req bonus (or to skip Priesthood completely), but do you expect to get Confucianism still with this roundabout path? Are you planning to go for a Theology bulb instead?
Are the Hanging Gardens still being built? Or have you let SleepingMoogle have them in the end. I've kind of lost track of that one. Thought you were still going at it, but haven't seen mention of it lately.
Irgy Wrote:Can't imagine why you'd want Moai before a lighthouse, hardly worth working sea tiles without the 2 food. But yes, building them both seems like a good idea to me.
That was my first thought as well. Although with such a low hammer count in that city (and Priest slots available), I'm not sure if it might be worth getting Moai ASAP and then chugging out a Lighthouse shortly afterwards. Possibly not, but thought I'd put it out there as an option anyway.
Irgy Wrote:You can really see stonehenge paying off with these new cities. Pig-gold would have taken a good while to build a monument for instance.
Well, Pig-Gold could have been founded 1SW if we didn't have free Monuments (though it'd miss a few forests and the hill defence). But certainly multiple other cities - almost all the other ones we've founded to date in fact - have made use of the free Monuments in their placement. The early investment in that wonder is certainly paying off now that we're getting to 10+ cities. I'm very glad we got it, all in all.
Irgy Wrote:What's your religion plan at the moment? I see you're getting Currency before Code of Laws. Makes sense for the trade routes and the pre-req bonus (or to skip Priesthood completely), but do you expect to get Confucianism still with this roundabout path? Are you planning to go for a Theology bulb instead?
I think Confucianism is probably out of the picture now that Currency is a higher priority than COL. However, I still think we have decent odds at getting Christianity through Theology. That's our most likely option for a future shrine at the moment, in my opinion.
Irgy Wrote:Are the Hanging Gardens still being built? Or have you let SleepingMoogle have them in the end. I've kind of lost track of that one. Thought you were still going at it, but haven't seen mention of it lately.
I mentioned a few posts back that SleepingMoogle got the wonder on turn 84 - the same turn we could have got it if we'd rushed, but we decided not to. A bit of a shame, but not a big deal... preferable to whipping our capital away right when it needed to grow, in my books anyway. Besides, we got some gold out of it, so it wasn't all bad.
Adlain and WarriorKnight seem almost out of the game at this point, with so few cities and no wonders to back them up. Rego at least has the Great Lighthouse, which I still think will eventually pull him into the first division if not first place.
Plako seems to be ahead in GNP by a huge amount. Wonder if it was him that just got a Great Scientist? We're middle of the pack (#5) at 0% research, as expected.
Luddite's the clear leader in both MFG and power. I expect things to develop between him and Mackoti soon. Plako's competing for a close #2 in MFG with Luddite. We're bringing up #3.
Plako's got a slight edge in food, but we're closing in on him fast at #2 there.
We're also #2 in land despite our lead in cities right now, probably due to Plako's Creative trait. We'll catch up after our border expansions.
Is your plan to start Moai Statues directly after the axeman in Madagan? The city seems relatively production poor, so I would have figured that we'd be getting a good portion of our hammers there from whips. If that's the case, shouldn't the build order be Granary-Lighthouse-Moai Statues? Even is the intent is not to whip, it seems sub-optimal to have a city sit for so long without a granary.
Lord Parkin, you seem pretty confident that Luddite intends to go after Mackoti. From what we know has happened between the two in the past, I would tend to agree. Plus, Mackoti has some units placed near Luddite's holdings, which indicates that he wants to keep close tabs on him. I would recommend that we do the same, since we have two warriors guarding Acinonyx, one of which could easily move west to scout Luddite again and act as a sentry in all that unsettled land.
I just want to play devil's advocate for a bit, and consider the probability of a war with Luddite. From the attached image, it's clear that he's gearing up for a war with someone. He's got roughly twice our power from the given graph, and it certainly looks like a war with him would be pretty tough for us. Our capital has some very good production, but I'm not convinced that we could really defend against a concerted effort given that we have just about zero military buildup in the area.
Now, it's pretty intuitive to assume that Luddite is gunning for Mackoti and not us, given their previous altercations (which broke a NAP). However, a few factors make me a bit uneasy
1. Parkin, you've stated that what makes you feel safest from an early war is the geographical factors and the distances involved. We already know that distance is not a deterrent to Luddite, since we and Mackoti are roughly equidistant to him, no? If we can assume that Luddite's willing to invade Mackoti, we have to admit that he could be willing to invade us, at least from a distance standpoint.
2. Mackoti's power rating is even lower than ours. I would have thought that if relations between the two were hostile, then Mackoti would be carefully watching the power graph. However, despite multiple turns of rapid increase by Luddite, Mackoti has made no move to respond in kind. So, either Mackoti is being suicidally unobservant, or he's very confident that Luddite has no hostile intent towards him (possibly because Luddite has disclosed an intent to invade another nearby neighbor?).
Of course, I'm probably being paranoid again. If I were in Luddite's shoes, I'd much rather attack my weaker, smaller neighbor who has already proved himself untrustworthy over us. All the same, there's something about the narrative over there that doesn't quite add up. Parkin, is there any way for you to put out some diplomatic feelers without stepping on any toes? From what you've posted, it seems like both parties are being deliberately vague, but any information would be helpful. I'm especially curious to find out what kind of in game restitution Luddite got for Mackoti breaking a NAP and attempting to steal a worker and a settler.
Senseless Wrote:Is your plan to start Moai Statues directly after the axeman in Madagan? The city seems relatively production poor, so I would have figured that we'd be getting a good portion of our hammers there from whips. If that's the case, shouldn't the build order be Granary-Lighthouse-Moai Statues? Even is the intent is not to whip, it seems sub-optimal to have a city sit for so long without a granary.
Well, we wouldn't be growing beyond size 6 while building the Moai Statues. I agree though, I'm not sure building them straight away is the best option. A Granary is only worth slotting in before the Lighthouse and Moai Statues if we're intending on whipping them, that's for sure. It would definitely delay Moai though, so I'm not sure if we want to build it after the wonder. Hmm, need to do some testing there I think.
Senseless Wrote:Lord Parkin, you seem pretty confident that Luddite intends to go after Mackoti. From what we know has happened between the two in the past, I would tend to agree. Plus, Mackoti has some units placed near Luddite's holdings, which indicates that he wants to keep close tabs on him. I would recommend that we do the same, since we have two warriors guarding Acinonyx, one of which could easily move west to scout Luddite again and act as a sentry in all that unsettled land.
Sure, I'll keep sentries around to watch out for any units from Luddite heading our way. I think that's a good idea regardless.
Senseless Wrote:I just want to play devil's advocate for a bit, and consider the probability of a war with Luddite. From the attached image, it's clear that he's gearing up for a war with someone. He's got roughly twice our power from the given graph, and it certainly looks like a war with him would be pretty tough for us. Our capital has some very good production, but I'm not convinced that we could really defend against a concerted effort given that we have just about zero military buildup in the area.
Looks can be deceiving. Our capital will soon almost be able to pump out one Axe/Spear/War Chariot per turn if we want, and our other cities will also be able to produce/whip units very quickly if need be. I have no concerns about our ability to fend off an invasion from Luddite if it comes our way.
Senseless Wrote:Now, it's pretty intuitive to assume that Luddite is gunning for Mackoti and not us, given their previous altercations (which broke a NAP). However, a few factors make me a bit uneasy
1. Parkin, you've stated that what makes you feel safest from an early war is the geographical factors and the distances involved. We already know that distance is not a deterrent to Luddite, since we and Mackoti are roughly equidistant to him, no? If we can assume that Luddite's willing to invade Mackoti, we have to admit that he could be willing to invade us, at least from a distance standpoint.
The difference is that - as I understand it - Mackoti and Luddite are both trying to settle near a chokepoint between them. Because they're both settling towards one another, their borders actually will be fairly close (no more than 3-5 tiles), whereas our borders are a very long way away by comparison (12-15 tiles).
Senseless Wrote:2. Mackoti's power rating is even lower than ours. I would have thought that if relations between the two were hostile, then Mackoti would be carefully watching the power graph. However, despite multiple turns of rapid increase by Luddite, Mackoti has made no move to respond in kind. So, either Mackoti is being suicidally unobservant, or he's very confident that Luddite has no hostile intent towards him (possibly because Luddite has disclosed an intent to invade another nearby neighbor?).
Don't forget the graphs lag a turn or two behind the actual game. I'm fairly confident that we'll see Mackoti's power start to go up over the next few turns. If it doesn't, then that may be cause for some concern, although I doubt that will eventuate.
Senseless Wrote:Of course, I'm probably being paranoid again. If I were in Luddite's shoes, I'd much rather attack my weaker, smaller neighbor who has already proved himself untrustworthy over us. All the same, there's something about the narrative over there that doesn't quite add up. Parkin, is there any way for you to put out some diplomatic feelers without stepping on any toes? From what you've posted, it seems like both parties are being deliberately vague, but any information would be helpful. I'm especially curious to find out what kind of in game restitution Luddite got for Mackoti breaking a NAP and attempting to steal a worker and a settler.
I'll see what I can do... I'm already in regular contact with Luddite via chat, so it's no issue to check up on what he's doing.
Anyway, good on you for playing "devil's advocate" regardless - it's always good to take a fresh look on the situation and see what we could be doing better.
I just finished playing through my sim to work out a rough timeline for us for the future. It's actually not too bad. From my tests, we can get Currency on turn 101, which will be a massive boost to our economy. That'll allow us to snatch the 3 other religious techs (Meditation, Priesthood, Monotheism) in just 4 turns, ready for turn 105. In my sim, I arranged it so we got a great person on turn 104. Assuming we get the Temple of Artemis on turn 96, we'll have an 83% chance of getting a Great Prophet, a 9% chance of a Great Scientist and an 8% chance of a Great Merchant on turn 104. Essentially 92% odds of getting something great and only 8% odds of a relative dud (but still not too bad).
In the most likely scenario where we get the Great Prophet, this means that we could snag Theology and Christianity on turn 105, and start building the Apostolic Palace shortly thereafter. If we got a Great Scientist instead, we'd of course use him for an Academy - which would be awesome since we'd be at 40-50% on the slider at this point, even with 11 cities. Not sure about what we'd do if the Great Merchant turned up (trade mission or settling I guess), but there aren't high odds of that so we can just hope we get lucky. That or we could stop working on the Temple of Artemis just before it completes and hope to get gold at some point, though that'd delay our great person (Prophet/Scientist) by quite a few turns.
You know, looking at the tech preference list, a Great Merchant would allow us to bulb Metal Casting (since we'll already have Currency before turn 104). That actually wouldn't be too bad.
So I think the 83% Prophet / 9% Scientist / 8% Merchant pool will actually work out fine, regardless of what we get. The Prophet and Scientist will still be the preference, but the Merchant wouldn't be half bad either (immediate access to Industrious Forges!).
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