[SPOILERS] Tales from the Enchanted Forest - Thessa of the Ljosalfar

[Nyktorion]

Turn 95

First, some diplo I got before playing this turn. WarriorKnight responded positive, but uncommittal (understandably, since my idea was only for sme point in the future):

Hi nyktorion

Thanks for the congrats. It took a while to research but I'm glad that I finally got it.

Trading religion spread is an interesting idea. While I wouldn't be able to do it in the near future (since I only founded it last turn), I would definitely be interested in swapping religion spread at some point.

Regards,
WK

Mr. Yellow is nice enough to update me on his war against Thoth:

Thoth split up his stack a bit too much and i've managed to eliminate 2 of his swordsmen with little losses.
Walls coming up soon and i'm almost done researching Construction for catapults. However, Thoth is moving a 3 unit stack eastwards, all with mobility. I'm gonna have a hard time defending both cities with the current group, considering the desert right in the middle letting him 4-move that stack. So i wonder if you could spare some units to protect Vallus if possible.
Think it's 2 turns away from Trinity and 3 turns away from Vallus.

Anyway i'm planning to push Thoth off soon. If you can spare the units to take him on then i can bring in the collateral to do some real damage.
Also, WK is positive to open up a trade route to/through you, but is reluctant to get involved in this. However, he is connected to Irgy and he could spare the copper i'll need. Will ask him later.

- Sir Yellow

I wonder whether I should warn Thoth of the imminent Bannor catapults? Sure, I don't mind if the Bannor-Malakim war is getting bloody, but I don't want Thoth to get thrown out of the Bannor lands that easily, either. I still want Mr. Yellow to have a nice big distraction in the west when I move towards Vallus and Trinity.

Anyway, thanks for reminding me that Irgy is a potential source of copper, too (I think I would have forgotten)! So, if I want that trade connection in the south, I hav to negotiate an embargo not only with WarriorKnight, but also with Irgy; that would be already two possible leaks of my war plans. I guess it's easier to delay the connection for now.

On to the actual turn. My western hawk reports that Mr. Yellow is having some sense of humour :



The situation around Torrolerial is indeed getting better for Mr. Yellow now:





I don't see the stack moving towards Trinity, though. Anyway, I'm not concerned about that: by our diplomatic agreement, Thoth will hand over Trinity to me if he takes it. Even if he indeed breaks this NAP-level agreement, it will still be very hard to defend against me, as long as he doesn't take Torrolerial, as well.

The hawk did its actual scouting flight from Astrum this turn. Thoth seems to be collecting some reinforcements for the siege of Torrolerial:



The other hawk reveals more of the Sheaim lands. In particular, it is confirmed that Irgy has Animal Husbandry.



In some domestic news, thanks to the whip, Yonna now has an archery range. It starts pumping archers now. Also, at the end of the turn, a great sage is finally born in Evermore. With >200g accumulated and an academy in Evermore built, I'll start going for Priesthood at 100% starting from next turn.

[Nyktorion]

Foreign news:

First some revolutions. As expected, WarriorKnight converts to the Order. Also, Thoth switched to another kind of warlike civics. Rather than 6XP units, he is now going for Military State (drafting!) and Agristocracy.



City growths: Garryvoe (1, newly founded), Vallus (7)

So Garryvoe is WarriorKnight's fifth city. Indeed, as he announced, he settled it 4S3E of Kabhalg.

Techs: Mardoc (ancient), Thoth (Code of Laws, based on his revolution)

Thoth's soldier count has decreased by 11k, reinforcing Mr. Yellow's tale of his victory.

More diplo:

I sent the usual hawk report to Mr. Yellow, along with some noncommital "blahblah" about his request for military aid (I don't want to send actual units to help you, but I won't say that directly if I can help it).

Congratulations on your victory around Torrolerial!

I fear I am not yet ready to send any actual units at this moment. However, as you might see, I am at work building up my forces. Also, I am currently researching Priesthood; I believe that tiger priests should finally give me the edge needed to make the decisive strike in this war.

On another note, I am surprised by your assessment that mobility warriors can 4-move through desert. I always thought desert takes 1 movement point from any nomad with >1 moves, and 1/2 point just from 1-moving nomads (at least, my hunters and scouts can only move 2 squares through forests, just as my warriors can)? Or am I missing something more special here?

As you can see in the attached screenshot, Thoth seems to be preparing more forces. Besides the highlighted swordsman, the stack 2S1W of Golden Shack is a single warrior with Mobility I. The stacks south of the Pool of Tears are 2+3 unpromoted warriors.

best regards,
Nyktorion

Attached picture:

WarriorKnight requests cooperation on a trade connection. Seems like I'll soon have to tell him about my plans with regard to the Bannor; and ask him to wait for 10 more turns in order to avoid dragging Irgy into all this, too. Since Mr. Yellow described WarriorKnight as reluctant on the copper deal, I have hope that he'll be fine with my reasoning.

Hi nyktorion

It seems a bit silly that we have a border 3 tiles away from each other but still lack a trade route. Do you want to help me build a couple of roads between Kabhalg and Garryvoe so we can fix that?

Regards,
WarriorKnight

[Nyktorion]

Turn 96

The great sage Mykel Dylantyr was born in Evermore!



He founded an academy in Evermore, yielding about 20 extra beakers per turn.

The western hawk did a scouting run from Evermore again. It found that the siege is still going on (7 Bannor vs 3 Malakim, including General Martok). Also, a pillaging stack was uncovered:



In the southwest, I saw that Thoth got an adventurer! It seems to be a pretty fresh one, though: it has neither any promotions, nor the blue aura signalling the ability to distribute promotions.



The other hawk looked yet another step deeper into Irgy's territory:



Evermore finished its market, and will pump out some more disciples for upgrading into priests. Also, workers are continuing to improve Yonna.

[Nyktorion]

C&D:

City growths: Mardoc's second or third city (8), Mardoc's fifth city (2), Golden Lean To (10), Golden Tipi (4), Galveholm (9), Tongurstad (6)

Techs: WarriorKnight (classical), Mr. Yellow (very likely Construction)

Diplo:

I sent the usual hawk report to Mr. Yellow:

Dear Mr. Yellow,

please see attached another picture by my hawk. The unhighlighted stack is two unpromoted warriors, but I think the highlighted unit (Adventurer) is the interesting part here...

best regards,
Nyktorion

Attached picture:

Irgy sent me a follow-up on trade plans for the future. He is already working on assigning values to lending mana - if I'm going to set trade terms that far in advance, I'll really have to think about that a bit:

> Dear Irgy,
>
> since I explored the sepulcher the "requires route" label has changed to
> "research: knowledge of the ether, research: necromancy", so sadly, it seems
> I will indeed need Necromancy to connect the death mana.

I have to confess I've never actually explored the sepulcher before. Having
just tested it in worldbuilder, you appear to be indeed correct. You actually
need to build a death node there in fact, not just research the required
technologies. It's like a raw mana node now, except one which may only be
improved to one type.

> With WarriorKnight settling his border city to Kabhalg rather soon, it
> should not take too long for us to be able to trade resources. Maybe, you
> can already use some of my mana, or my second sheep at this point; while I
> can't really use any of your mana at this point (don't have Knowledge of the
> Ether yet), I might be interested in happiness resources you have.

Well, maybe it's coming time to talk about trades already then. I'll have
spare gold and gems available for trade fairly shortly, and a fair few other
things (fish, clams, pigs, rice, dyes) available once I've settled the
appropriate cities. I don't have my own sheep, although I don't greatly need
health at this current time.

The more interesting thing though really is mana, and how you value mana
trades. I'm going to be interested in most of your available mana at various
points in time.

The easiest way to manage it I think is to consider any mana traded to be mana
shared, regardless of the length of trade. So for instance if I lend you fire
mana, I'd be happy to lend it again in the future and not consider it an extra
trade. While on the other hand I only really gain any benefit from a second
death mana if it is loaned on a more permanent basis - although obviously I'd
give it back at times so you could take death promotions, and even loan you my
own for the same period of time so you can get some for free.

If you have a different approach or opinion that's ok too, I'm just giving a
starting point for discussion.

Irgy

Finally, I hooked up Thoth for a chat. I had decided to let him know about the Bannor's new classical tech bein Construction, and Mr. Yellow's plans to trade copper with WarriorKnight or Irgy through me. I affirmed Thoth that I'll do my best to keep myself and WarriorKnight separated until T106. I got the interesting advice that roads can't be cut within one's own territory (I verified this immediately, and he's right; good to know!). I learned that he will go for Astrum soon, and that the road between Torrolerial and Trinity is aready cut (so there must be a sea connection). I also told him that my Priesthood research will be finished in 5 turns.

Also, after some thinking, I am getting more and more certain that telling WarriorKnight about my plans straight-up will be best thing. If I remain convinced of this, I'll write an according answer to WarriorKnight's connection request after playing my turn today.

[Nyktorion]

Turn 97

Tongurstad got the "population calls for the execution of a witch" event this turn, which I believe to just give the option for +1 happy face for 10 turns.

The western hawk sees that the standoff of Torrolerial continues. Here is a picture of the south west of Astrum:



So Thoth has upgraded his adventurer into a warrior (and it will further progress towards being a swordsman soon, I think). Thoth also moved General Martok away from Torrolerial, so he is indeed planning to take Astrum, it seems.



This turn, I sent the eastern hawk northward for a change, in order to give me sight into Garryvoe.



C&D:

City growths: Mardoc's sixth city (1, just founded), Golden Yurt (3), Cahir Abbey (10), Steinvik (3)

Techs: probably WarriorKnight (ancient)

Diplo:

I sent the usual hawk report to Mr. Yellow:

Attached is another picture by my hawk, flying from Astrum again. Due to the high number of visible units, I have used the color coding scheme again.

best regards,
Nyktorion

Attached picture:

I decided that I'd spill my war plans to WarriorKnight. If I just stalled, I'd certainly look quite shady to him by T105, and I'd like to keep good relations with him. Also, stalling might tip him off that something is wrong; note that Mr. Yellow already asked him for copper and a connection through me. Therefore, I reasoned there's a very good chance that WarriorKnight would figure out something's fishy anyway, and being straight with him gives me the greatest chance of him not tipping off Mr. Yellow.

Hi WarriorKnight,

I am currently finishing a few small other things with my workers. After that, I should be able to shift the road towards Garryvoe inbetween their other tasks.

best regards,
Nyktorion

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, the above is just my official respons to your request. I would like to inform you a bit more about my current situation, but I also ask you to keep everything below the above line confidential. If anyone else asks you about this topic, please only let them know of the response above the line. I had to think about this topic for quite a while, which also explains the delay in my response, for which I apologise.

Very well...

Of course, I'd generally like to establish trade routes; they give us more profitable trade routes in our cities once we have open borders, and they enable us to trade resources. Both of that is beneficial to both of us. However, our connection can also be used by anyone else we're currently not at war with; in particular, Mr. Yellow would be connected to Irgy, giving him a new potenital source of copper, and this is the source of my reservation against our routes.

As I have told you in a chat some while ago, there was some border conflict between myself and Mr. Yellow, because I settled my city Yonna 3 tiles away from Vallus. Meanwhile, I found out that Vallus was actually a much more aggressive settling move than Yonna: Vallus is 10 tiles away from Torrolerial, in my direction (it strongly reminds me of the "pink dot" story I've seen on RB), and this is the reason for two things:

1) My own settling space is rather restricted; I don't really have space for a sensible sixth city anymore
2) The Bannor empire is essentially divided into two halves; when Torrolerial and Trinity had only three cultural rings each, the borders of these halves were only touching each other, but not overlapping

The prominence of our border conflict has meanwhile been drowned by the Bannor-Malakim war, and I am currently playing nice with him, and we have a NAP until T105. With Thoth heavily distracting Mr. Yellow in the west, myself lacking space, and the Bannor being the reason or my lack of space, I am planning to join the war on Thoth's side as soon as my NAP with the Bannor runs out, and to take Vallus and Trinity for myself.

I hope that you would also rather see those cities going to me than Thoth eventually taking all of the Bannor lands

Consequentially, I have a strong interest in keeping Mr. Yellow disconnected from copper. Since I would rather share my war plans only with you (whom I have had good relationships with for a long time already) rather than with both you and Irgy (whom I have met only recently), I prefer a solution that only involves us two (negotiating a copper embargo would require to incorporate Irgy, as well). Therefore, I would like to ask you to refrain from connecting our cities until T106, and to understand that I will refrain from doing so, as well. After that time, I would happily start a trading relationship between our two empires.

I would also be very happy if you kept even the very fact that I am unwilling to quickly establish a connection confidential; therefore, please use my initial response as my official response to your request.

Would the kind of cooperation I am asking for be okay for you?

WarriorKnight's response:

Hi Nyktorion

Since your going to DOW on the Bannor soon and want to prevent them getting copper then I understand that you want to delaying the trade connection until sometime after t106 (exact date unknown, i don't make worker plans so I'll see what workers I can spare when we get there). I will of course keep this information confidential and between the two of us only.

Best of luck in your campaign against the Bannor. (And do make sure that you capture them, as you've mentioned already we don't want Thoth to get all of the Bannor lands )

Regards,
WarriorKnight

I like his explicit promise to "keep this information confidential and between the two of us only" very much. His request to really capture Vallus and Trinity for myself should not be problematic to fulfill, since I have that diplomatic agreement with Thoth. Of course, I won't say that to WarriorKnight exactly in that way.

[Nyktorion]

Turn 98

The western hawk reveals that Torrolerial and Astrum are still under siege, and General Martok is continuing his march towards Astrum:





Thoth has taken the barbarian city Zbolub:



On the other side, I now have visibility of all Sheaim cities. In particular, Grottiburg already has a Mage Guild and the first adept.



Bruti trained another archer, which I am adding to my main stack, and is getting even more. Also, the pig pasture 1SW of Kabhalg is finished.



C&D:

City growths: Mardoc's fourth city (4), Zbolub -> Golden Hut (2, newly taken), Golden Wigwam (1, newly founded), Golden Hovel (7), Golden Shanty (5), Golden Tipi (5), Graelingvig (2)

Techs: probably, Mardoc got another classical tech.

The demo screen:



Generally, it's looking quite good; there's one bad thing, though: Thoth is surpassing me in all categories. With the barbarian city taken, another new city founded, everything growing, and aristocratic malakim flood plain farms, this might get out of hand soon. Still, given our distance, I still think my best bet is the plan to take Vallus and Trinity, which should give me a chance to catch up. I think I should also research sailing soon in order to settle that island east of Evermore.

Diplo:

The usual report went to Mr. Yellow:

Please see attached another hawk picture, this time from Torrolerial again. Next turn, the hawk's scouting base will be back in Astrum.

best regards,
Nyktorion

Attached picture:

I answered my thanks to WarriorKnight. If he indeed keeps his word, then telling him my plans was a good thing indeed.

Hi WarriorKnight,

thanks a lot for your cooperation in this matter!

You can be assured that I will try my hardest to capture Vallus and Trinity myself. After all, gaining the eastern part of the Bannor territory is the whole point of this campaign for me

best regards,
Nyktorion

Concerning Irgy, I ddon't have the mana deals in my mind specifically enough in order to imagine what's really fair dealing here; however, I think his suggestion would rather favor him, concerning that he will be using the death mana from my sepulcher for a long time then. I did have a few thoughts, so I shared them with him:

Hi Irgy,

> The more interesting thing though really is mana, and how you value mana
> trades. I'm going to be interested in most of your available mana at various
> points in time.
>
> The easiest way to manage it I think is to consider any mana traded to be mana
> shared, regardless of the length of trade. So for instance if I lend you fire
> mana, I'd be happy to lend it again in the future and not consider it an extra
> trade. While on the other hand I only really gain any benefit from a second
> death mana if it is loaned on a more permanent basis - although obviously I'd
> give it back at times so you could take death promotions, and even loan you my
> own for the same period of time so you can get some for free.

> If you have a different approach or opinion that's ok too, I'm just giving a
> starting point for discussion.

Hmm, I'm am currently unsure myself on how to implement such deals best, but I can at least give my current thoughts on that subject.

I can see the logic behind your proposal: indeed, the value of sharing some mana is greater for the first 10 turns shared, than for any subsequent 10-turn periods. On the other hand, I'd also say that the value of sharing some mana for subsequent 10-turn periods is not zero, either, it's rather some fraction inbetween. Still, I think that by default, the best way to pay for such "fractional mana" values is by some other "fractional mana".

We could implement mana deals as follows, for instance: when we share a source of mana, the one who doesn't have it at the moment can ask for it whenever he needs it, with the proviso that the mana may switch back to the other one only after a period of X (e.g., X=10?) turns. That way, everyone could just use the mana he needs at some point without someone keeping a shared mana to himself forever. In order to accomodate your more permanent need for death mana, we could then agree on a certain minimum duration o such a deal, and tie it to a NAP, or we could specify in advance for what time periods you need the death mana in advance.

Do you think that such guidelines could make for some fair mana trading relations?

best regards,
Nyktorion

[Nyktorion]

Turn 99

It seems Thoth is taking his war to the psychological level, too :



The western hawk looks at the Bannor-Malakim war yet more, this time flying from Astrum. It seems that Thoth is accumalting quite a number of reinforcements.



Oh, and General Mardoc is theoretically already in range to strike Astrum next turn.



On the eastern side, I feel like I've seen enough of Irgy' lands now. Therefore, that hawk is scouting further to the east. It seems that there is not too much land remaining for WarriorKnight and Irgy on that side. More importantly, my island seems to be an island indeed, not a peninsula with a connection to the southern lands.



My land is getting more and more improved by my workers. For one turn, Kabhalg is now only working improved tiles; it grew to size 5 at the end of the turn, though. Also, Evermore finished its first disciple. I'm starting work on another one for a turn, but I'll switch to a priest (which will be whipped immediately) as soon as Priesthood is researched.



C&D:

City growths: Golden Yurt (4), Inishbofin (6), Steinvik (4) - since I've got visibility of all those city, that was rather easy

Diplo:

Not much here either, I just sent the usual picture to Mr. Yellow. 6 pictures to go, then that piece of work will be done!

Yet another picture of the Malakim lands, this turn scouted from Astrum again.

best regards,
Nyktorion

Attached picture:

[Sciz]

Can't believe all the effort you're taking to make those pics for mr yellow

[Nyktorion]

Can't believe all the effort you're taking to make those pics for mr yellow

Well, after doing it once, the pictures after that did not really take much effort to do; it's always the same schemes in paint I used there. Just the picture of last turn was a bit more effort considering the number of stacks Thoth had running around, but that still was the least-effort way to keep remain consistent towards him.

Turn 100

My western hawk flew from Torrolerial again. Both Torrolerial and Astrum are under siege now, and Astrum's siege is particularly heavy:





The eastern hawk has looked at everything in the east now. It flew to another hunter I've positioned northeast of Inishbofin, where (with some luck) it might establish contact with Mardoc when scouting to the south west. Anyway, it will certainly uncover more of the Elohim lands, and allow me to keep an eye on the area around Astrum without Mr. Yellow seeing my hawk in Yonna.

Other than that, Kabhalg finished its elder council, and is going for a market to hel my economy some more (I think two archer cities and two priest cities suffice).

My empire:





C&D: Thoth got a classical tech this turn, and Golden Shanty (or possibly Golden Tipi) grew to size 6.

Diplo:

I got this from Irgy:

> We could implement mana deals as follows, for instance: when we share a
> source of mana, the one who doesn't have it at the moment can ask for it
> whenever he needs it, with the proviso that the mana may switch back to the
> other one only after a period of X (e.g., X=10?) turns. That way, everyone
> could just use the mana he needs at some point without someone keeping a
> shared mana to himself forever. In order to accomodate your more permanent
> need for death mana, we could then agree on a certain minimum duration o
> such a deal, and tie it to a NAP, or we could specify in advance for what
> time periods you need the death mana in advance.
>
> Do you think that such guidelines could make for some fair mana trading
> relations?

Sorry, I've been sick and it's taken all weekend for me to get my head around
your suggestion. Not that it's particularly complicated, nor badly phrased or
anything. I've just had a fuzzy head, and been busy with my daughter's 2nd
birthday as well.

I think something like that could work. The important thing will be to give
each other a bit of notice so that we don't both desperately want the same
mana at the same time. That and a bit of common sense and good will should
usually cover it, but it's good to have something to fall back to if a
conflict arises. I'll obviously mostly still just have to accept the fact that
continuing to receive death mana from you will depend on us continuing to get
along, though an NAP would help with that a little.

By the way, have you had any units killed by a spider just east of my lands
recently? It was acting strange - it seemed to run away for a couple of turns,
which I thought they never did. It might have been attacking someone, although
it didn't get any promotions. I thought it might even be one you'd captured,
though it seemed unlikely. Maybe they do run away I've just never seen it
before - it was injured though.

Irgy

So he generally seems to like my scheme on dealing with mana. He also thinks I own a (hidden nationality) spider, which I deny:

Dear Irgy,

no problem at all, real life of course takes precedence over this PBEM.

What you say about goodwill is exactly what I'm thinkig here: the most convenient option for both of us will would be to share our mana pretty freely, with everyone taking just what he needs from our common pool, so what we need is indeed just some rules for conflict. One thing I could imagine adding to the system would be to ask for advance notice Y number of turns before one really wants some mana (e.g., Y=3, to be ignored whenever it's okay with both of us?).

Concerning the spider: there's one thing I think I remember about the movement of spiders from my SP games: they like forests, so in order to move from a flat tile into a forest, it might move away from a player's stack; since you describe it as running away for several turns, that rule is probably not applicable in your case, though. For myself, I can say that I currently do not own any spiders at all, so in particular, the one you are describing is certainly not mine.

best regards,
Nyktorion

More importantly, Mr. Yellow is also talking to me:

Suggest you get your hawk out of Astrum, that city is about to fall.
Also i'd like to talk about extending the NAP to...lets say turn 120.

- Sir Yellow

Thanks for supporting my planned move back to Torrolerial like that
Concerning the NAP extension: obviously, I would have rather liked him to wait some more before bringing this up. However, objectively, he has chosen a rather appropriate time for the NAP renegotiation.

So, now I'd like to win as much time as possible without signing a new NAP before my intentions become clear to him. Therefore, I stall for some time. Giving him a specific date for writing back will certainly raise his suspicions after this date has passed, but at least, my chances to at least win that bit of time increase. So if everything works fine, he'll be alarmed at T103, if I am very lucky, it'll take him until T104, which would leave him 3-4 turns to prepare ((maybe T103), 104, 105, and, since he is moving before me, T106).

Dear Mr. Yellow,

thanks for the warning, I also saw General Martok moving towards Astrum during the last turns.

Please see attached another hawk photo from Torrolerial.

Concerning your NAP extension proposal: indeed, our initial NAP will be running out in about 5 turns, so now is a good time to negotiate an extension. However, I have not completely made up my mind myself on how to handle this extension. So, I'd like to return to you later today or tomorrow, when I have thought about this some more.

best regards,
Nyktorion

Attached picture:

Next up: some general remarks about the state of the empire on the occasion of the 100th turn.

[Nyktorion]

So, 100 turns have passed, where are we standing after that? First, let's take a look through our 5 cities.

Evermore:



We are elves, so we have those nice ancient forest cottages. Also, we have adopted God King, and Evermore has an academy. As a consequence, Evermore is specialised in everything: hammers, gold, and beakers. Militarily, it's dedicated to priests for now. I still need to plant some of those forests, though, and it has reached the limits of its growth for now, both in terms of happiness and number of workable tiles.

Hyll:



Again, we see the typical elven non-specialisation. However, it has a few more forested hills than the other cities, so its production is a bit better (modulo Evermore's higher population and God King bonus, of course). This is my second priest pump.

Bruti:



Another similar city. It has less hammers, but more food than hyll. It's one of my two current archer pumps.

Yonna:



The proximity to Vallus is hampering this one a bit. Still, it connects my earth mana, and gets some very nice food out of the tiles it can work. This is my second archer pump, and it will definitely see at least 1-2 whips before I declare on Mr. Yellow.

Kabhalg:



I want to farm all these riverside grasslands, and make this another whipping city, albeit on a higher general niveau of population than Yonna. Militarily, I currently don't have specific plans for this city.

So, here's the general Ljosalfar city overview for T100:



Research-wise, Priesthood is finished at the end of this turn. The next 2 or 3 turns, I'll halt research in order to raise some funds for upgrading disciples to priests. After that, I plan to go for Fishing and Sailing in order to claim that island to my east. A closer look at the southern edge of visibility on this island reveals that the name plate for Yggdrasil is bleeding out of the shadows there!

I'm making 143 beakers per turn at max research currently. The break-even rate is 60% at the moment, which would net me 93 beakers per turn and 7 gold per turn.