RBP4 [SPOILERS] - Shaka of Zulu (sunrise089, regoarrarr, and friends)

[regoarrarr]

Overview shot



I wish there was a way to (easily turn off signs. I've looked but never found one.

Anyway - some things to note:

* 2 cities to be founded next turn - Red Circles
* Merchant loaded on galley - ready to set sail pending arrangement with Lord Parkin - Blue Triangle
* Adlain is sending us 2 Buddhist missionaries (in exchange for one worker, who is roading that way) - Yellow Square

I believe we have decided to go up the religious line - currently we are at 0% research on Polytheism (on the way to Priesthood, Monotheism and Monarchy) - hopefully we won't have to run 0% very much (maybe 0-1 more turns) before our merchant will allow us to run 100% science for about 10-15 turns straight.

[regoarrarr]

I know "certain people" will be disappointed that we are not building any settlers or workers. We're currently on the regrow half of things - and there are several cities that have overflow hammers in a worker or settler

* Vine - swap to settler in 2t, whip in 5t
* Reading - swap to settler in 4t, whip in 4t (43/100 already in from overflow)
* Montgomery - swap to settler in 4t, whip in 6t (29/100)
* Colerain - swap to settler in 5t, whip in 6t (35/100)
* Hamilton - swap to worker in 3t, whip in 5t
* Columbia - swap to settler in 3t, whip in 4t
* Batavia - swap to worker in 2t, whip in 2t (17/60)

Wow I didn't realize how many settlers were coming up soon

[regoarrarr]

So with our current 10 cities, and the 2 to be founded next turn, and the 5 settlers to be built / whipped over the next 4-6 turns, that will be (gulp!) 17 cities. As a comparison, plako, that giant behemoth who is the subject of potential boycotts, currently has 15, and Lord Parkin and Locke have 11.

Okay so first let's plan where these cities are going
* Vine (built / born in 6t) - to the "island" city near Harrison, pending discussion with LP
* Reading (5) - Kellogg (dyes city)
* Montgomery (7) - possibly horse / deer / wheat city, though that's not coastal. Another option would be the gems / fish city in the far SW or a city in the north
* Colerain (7) - to the cows site SW of Bob's Fork that plako said we could have.
* Columbia (5) - to the "globe" site

Definitely need some more workers.

[regoarrarr]

In other news, I sent this email off to Moogle

Hi there,

One correction on the war effort - for some reason I was convinced that you were Louis of France, but you are not, of course (as you well know). I think I was confused because Louis of France was the other civ / leader combo that we were considering taking (apparently we did not get the memo about the unrestricted leaders setting) :-D. So musketeers would obviously not work, but that's fine - I'm sure with a 2 (or 3) vs. 1 that we could figure something out.

I think we are probably going to end up Buddhist as well. It's more of a priority for us as we are not creative, so it would be nice to not have to keep building monuments.

As for a city near the southern ivory, I was thinking somewhere around 2S of the rice? It depends on which of us "gets" the rice. If I go further south, then the city has no food, which isn't the end of the world, but obviously makes it a less attractive city. Guess it depends on where your city(ies) in the area are going.

The other thing I just realized the other day that we should talk about is seafood in the lake between us. I think it makes sense that any seafood that is 1 tile away from one of our coasts would belong to that civ, but there appear to be a few seafoods that are 2 tiles away from both of us. I see:

* The crab I just netted which was the reason I realized we needed to have this discussion
* The whale 2N of that crab (As far as I can tell you only have 1 tile that you could plant a city on to grab that whale and I don't know if that's a valid city site for you or not)
* A crab 3N2E of that whale (I can not tell if that is only 1 tile from your coast or not)

Thoughts on those?

And of course I put the in the email - it just more easily captures what I was trying to say (plus it looks cool when I paste the email into our thread :-) )

[regoarrarr]

LP and us discussing borders - he sent this screenshot



Our lands are blocked by that eaternmost peak tile

[regoarrarr]

Chat with LP - it's long - summarized below

Lord: is indeed interesting about the game theory side of things... technically I could ask for more than 100 gold but then I'd feel like I was being unreasonable. I think the 100/100+ split is much fairer.
me: the other thing i just realized is that i now have 3gpt trade routes with plako and locke's capital
Lord: well, you can send your Merchant that way if you want, although it'll be a much longer trek
me: yeah
that is a downside of course
Lord: not sure if that increases the gold yield or by how much
me: i always thought it did
Lord: our own capital will also be growing shortly
me: but it doesn't appear to
Lord: calculation's obviously a bit complicated
I'm pretty sure 200 is the very minimum amount extra you'll get from our capital though, my testing was fairly thorough
me: well as it stands, a size 13 city (your city) would have 1.3 * (1.5 for peace, .+ 25 for connection to capital + 1 for ToA)
or 1.3 * 3.75, or 4.875, rounded to 4
so if that's the case then it would only be 100 extra compared to locke's or plako's capital
Lord: It'll be size 14 by the time you get to it, I'm pretty sure
me: but if you grow to size 14, then it would bump up to 5
and the 200 is correct
so what did you think of my proposal then?
Lord: well I think the 100 gold split each way is very reasonable of course
Which turn is your preference for extending the NAP, if you want to do that? I think I suggested an earlier date of 170 or a later date of 190.
me: we're at 140 currently, correct?
Lord: indeed
so that would be 30 or 50 turns extension respectively
me: right
let's say 182
unless you want to keep it on a round number to more easily remember it
Lord: bit of an oddball number :P
me: ;-)
Lord: actually I guess that's quite late in the game, thinking about it
end dates are typically around 250 for NTT, right?
me: hmm
in pb1, i want to say we went to 300 or so
and that was with tech trading
Lord: ok
me: so i'd expect this to go longer
Lord: last tech trading game I finished just after 250
so I guess maybe closer to the 300 end for NTT
me: ok
Lord: How about 1100 AD?
me: what turn is that?
Lord: bit after 170 I think
me: 1100 is t170
Lord: looking at the wrong column actually... it's 170
me: right
1200 is t180
let's say that
Lord: 1300 is 190
me: but before we dot the i's and such, we need to finish our settling discussion, which i brought up in conjunction with our merchant discussion, which we also need to finish ;-)
Lord: thing is that these calculations are based on future planning of when I expect to research certain technologies. I'd rather do either 170 or 190, or else not bother to extend.
me: well let's say 170
Lord: ok, sounds reasonable
I did note your points about settling, and I agree that we need to start thinking about that, but your proposition seems a little optimistic considering that I feel like I'm the one doing you the favour here
Personally I was thinking that basing sites around what areas we can most efficiently settle without huge cultural pressure
me: what do you mean?
Lord: There are two island sites I'm considering which overlap 6 tiles each with the BFC's of cities I already have on the mainland. These include Fish tiles in the , which I wouldn't want to be pushed out of my culture.
I'm sure you feel similarly about sites next to your own culture
me: yeah
Lord: And I wouldn't want to steal tiles from your own cities by aggressively placed island cities either, that would feel a bit dickish
me: are you okay sharing which sites you want? i think that's the next step - we figure out where we put the cities
that's what i am doing on our other borders
Lord: so I think we both have some natural spots which should sensibly be ours
me: and i do agree with your overall sentiment
Sent at 20:34 on Friday
Lord: yeah, the two sites I feel should be mine are 3 tiles north of my easternmost city (you can see its borders) and 3-4 tiles south/east of my current land directly below the capital. Both of these sites have significant overlap with BFC's of existing cities of mine and would share seafood with them.
In return, I think it's fair to say that the island north of the city of yours I can see the borders of across the channel should be yours, for the same reasons
me: ok
i'm trying to look what sites you're talking about
so trying to find your easternmost cities
it's the one whose borders are right next to my city?
so 3N of that city?
Lord: Um... I think there should only be one city whose borders you can see across the channel, right?
me: correct
Lord: If so, yeah, that one
me: ok i think i know that site
are you in game or have a s/s to compare?
Lord: not in-game at the moment, can see screenshots though
me: ok
so if it's the area that I think you're talking about, it looks like there are 2 potential sites on that "island"
Lord: your mean on the island north of your city?
me: no
the other one
to the south
the nothern one looks like it only has 1 city site
so in the south, what I can see
is a peak tile tha tblocks it from my land
then 2 grass tiles, then another peak 1S
then some land to the SW of that peak
i can't tell if that is connected to the northern "island" or nto
and i don't even know if this is the same spot you're talking about ;-)
Lord: let me send a screenie... just needed some time to find it
me: ok
Sent at 20:47 on Friday
Lord: ok, sent
me: ok
that is the same spot
Lord: please don't share this with anyone else
me: but i can not see that far west
Lord: hope you appreciate the free map knowledge
me: ;-)
so my lands connect to the east of that easternmost peak tile
Lord: so as you can see, I'm pretty much covering all the seafood already
any city you founded there would likely steal my seafood (or else have cripplingly slow growth)
yeah
that eastern peak tile connects to the rest of your land
me: correct
Lord: technically there might be room for 2 cities, but one would be very crappy and I don't think I'd bother with founding more than one
plus that spot is second ring for me, whereas it'd be fourth or fifth ring for you
me: ok
i can agree to letting you have those 2 spots, if you can let us have the one you mentioned (N of our city in the north) and one more that's about 4-5 tiles SE of the one you just showed me. And if we can agree to all that, I will agree to give you 100g for the merchant trade mission
Lord: so yeah, I think one site there, and one site 3N of the other city you can see, and I'll be happy... and I won't interfere with you on the island to the north of your city
me: (and you still have to name your clam city after me) ;-)
Lord: sounds reasonable... just a clarification: "and one more that's about 4-5 tiles SE of the one you just showed me" - so that'd be on the mainland right, on your side?
me: correct
the southern island appears to only have 3 tiles on it, and if there's no seafood (i can't tell currently), it's probably not worth another city
Lord: you mean the one south of this?
me: y
Lord: (the one I sent through?)
ok
me: no, south of that
4-5 tiles SE of that one
Lord: I'm confused
me: i don't know if you plan to go that far south or not
it is about 2 tiles of latitude further south than your city of pardus
Lord: this is the other island we're talking about?
me: yes
Lord: right, I'm on the same page now
me: i don't know if that's somethign i need to discuss with you, or plako
as i'm unclear where you two have agreed to border
if you have at all
Lord: and you want the mainland spot 4-5 SE of the screenie I showed you, which is not part of the island down south?
we have a rough border line agreement somewhere around the latitude of Leo
islands are more ambiguous though
me: leo is your gold city S of pardus?
Lord: indeed
me: ok
so horse island
aka the screenshot you sent
there is another "island" about 4-5 tiles SE of it
Lord: right
me: to me, it appears to fall into the "bordering zulu lands" category
like the northern island north of our city
Lord: so when you say you want the spot 4-5 tiles SE of the horse island, you mean on that island?
me: yes
it would not steal any seafood from your east coast
(cows / gems / clams city)
Lord: "to me, it appears to fall into the "bordering zulu lands" category"... well, yeah, except I doubt you're actually bordering it at present
ok
me: correct i am not
but it does border our mainland...
Lord: hehe
indeed, although the same could be said for the other islands
me: true
and look how magnanimous i am giving two of them to you ;-)
Lord: yeah... well I guess I'm open to the possibility of you taking that island further south, although it'll probably be a while before either of us would want to anyway (you might also want to talk with Plako about it, dunno)
it must be quite a way from both of our capitals
me: yeah
Lord: so I think we're pretty much agreed then... 100 gold in return for Merchant trade mission, NAP extension to 170, and island spots finally sorted out after all this time
me: ok
... one ... more... thing (columbo voice)
;-)
Lord: columbo?
me: it's a tv show
maybe from the 80s or so
don't know how old you are
Lord: heh... probably before my time
born 97
*87
me: okay
i was born in 76
so it's kind of even before my time
Lord: 23
me: but anyways columbo was a detective
Lord: ah, right... 34-35 then
me: and so he'd go about solving murder mysteries and such
Lord: ah, k
me: and his trademark was that he'd interrogate someone
and then he'd leave
and then as he was leaving he'd pop his head back and say "oh just one more thing"
and tha twould inevitably be the crucial question to break the case
Lord: heh
me: but anyways.... we had a city planned for the tile 1S of the easternmost peak tile in y our screenshot
i believe that coexists with your seafood and your city on that island
but wanted to make sure
it would take the grass and grass forest NE of the horse
but your city doesn't appear to have those tiles in the bfcanyways
Lord: hmm... I wouldn't mind at least leaving open the possibility of settling a crap city perhaps 1NE of the Horses... that would be impossible if you founded a city 2 tiles away (stupid peak land connection)
not sure I'd actually bother with it, but it'd be an impossibility if you settled there
any possibility of say going 1S, or would that screw it up?
me: i was just going to mention that
might be okay
how about i agree to not settle there w/o discussing it with you
Lord: that'd be good, thanks
me: probably going to be another 15-20 turns anyways
Lord: yeah, a while away yet
me: and by then maybe you'll know your settling plans for horse island
okay so with THAT
i think we are agreed ;-)
Lord: cool
that's great
good to have all this firmly ironed out
me: i'll request OB in game
galley will be there next turn
Lord: you shouldn't need OB... you can drop the Merchant off in the south
me: well shoot i wish you'd ahve told me that sooner
as now i've wasted a turn on the galley :-(
since i can't go on the ocean that isn't in your border
Lord: hmm, sorry about that... didn't realise you'd have a galley ready so quickly
you were just asking if I could loan you a not-yet-built one of mine a turn or two ago
me: well when you said you didn't have one i decided i needed to get one
Lord: I do apologise though, if I'd known you had the Galley ready I'd have sent directions before you moved
me: where should i disembark?
Lord: just a sec, will give you a specific plan... should net you back the lost turn with knowledge of where to go, hopefully
me: the only tiles i can see are the river opening
and the 2 tiles to its south
i already offered the OB ingame before you mentioned anything just so you know
Lord: righto
so where's your Galley now? On the Clam tile?
me: y
Lord: Ok... if you move the Galley 2S then 1SW-1NW, you can unload the Merchant onto a forest tile just north of that river opening
if you then move him 1NW (onto a roaded copper), you can follow the road west to the capital and arrive a turn later
me: ok
Lord: So the trade mission should be available in 4-5 turns
sorry again about the mismove, I think it shouldn't matter much though
me: it will cost 1t
not the end of the world
Lord: in all fairness you didn't mention to me that you were so close to getting out a Galley
me: yup better guard all your coastal cities!
Lord: hehe... I think your power is still lower than ours, and even ours is pretty pathetic :P
me: indeed i am in 9th
Lord: let's do battle with our warriors! :D
me: hey i have 3 impis!
Lord: and I have 3 Axes... perfect match
well, for us anyway
me: shoot i need to get 3 chariots
so i wonder when the "buildorama" will run out of this game
i mean in some cases it has
Lord: then I can play the War Chariot card :P
not too sure
think it depends on the player really

TL;DR version:
* Extend our NAP from t140 to t170 (he pegged t170 and t190 as dates he would be researching "crucial" techs and wanted one of those 2 as opposed to t180)
* We're going to settle the city near our Moai city
* He's settling some other island city north of that that we don't have visibility on
* He's also settling a city on the "island" in the screenshot above
* We will discuss before we settle our city of Glenway near horse island, potentially moving it 1S
* We will settle the island near our gems city south of horse island
* We will pay 100g for the trade mission

Annoyingly I mismoved the galley because I assumed that he was going to give OB, which he did not. So we lost 1 turn on the trade mission, so it will be 4-5 turns from now.

[Ellimist]

I'm surprised you didn't include OB officially into the deal. It included everything else.

[regoarrarr]

I'm surprised you didn't include OB officially into the deal. It included everything else.

I doubt he'd have gone for it. Undoubtedly it's just a sign of my wimpiness and poor negotation, I'm sure

It has come to my attention that certain people are upset that I floated the idea of moving Glenway 1S. And maybe that's just because I'm a wimp and a poor negotiator. But really, what have I given up?

Nothing.

I said I'd discuss it with him, and I do plan on doing so, but I don't plan on bringing it up until I'm right there, and if he throws a fit over it, I'll just settle it anyways.

Same thing with this northern island that he "conceded" to me. I didn't bring it up until I ALREADY had a galley built (which he doesn't have) and was imminently going to settle the spot. There was no way I was going to let him settle up there.

So kind of on that vein though, LP's diplomacy has definitely rubbed me wrong. Maybe he is "winning" some of these battles but he definitely hasn't really gotten me at least as a friend with his hard-line tactics and refusal to open borders. Especially compared to some of our other neighbors...

[regoarrarr]

Turn 113 played on this fine morning, as we tick to the 1AD time turnover (it's currently 50BC)

Our 2 new cities were founded - here's Galbraith in the east



And also note that the 5 points from those 2 cities has officially (at least for now) brought us out of last place!!!

On an economy note, the first city (Madison) cost us 0gpt and Galbraith gained us 2gpt, so we're still doing okay. It's also nice that we have Aggressive ihkandas which are contributing to keep our costs down.

If I turn science on to 100% we are actually #1 in GNP (though Lord Parkin is in a revolt to OR and Slavery). Still 8th in food and 9th in prod.

[regoarrarr]

The other thing to have fun with is try and guess how many people have Polytheism.

We are currently at 6/172 beakers.

If I drop science to 70%, it shows 119 (+1) beakers produced, and we come up just short, so let's say 168/172.

So 120 nominal beakers produces 162 real beakers.

120*1.2 is 144, so we're getting an additional 18 beakers from others who know it. Known Civs modifier actually comes first, which is 0.30 * civs that have it / civs that started on the map

Let's guess 4 civs have it - so 120 * (1+ (.30*4/9) = 136 * 1.2 = 163 beakers. Looks awful suspicious
3 civs yields 158
5 civs yields 168 (which would get us Poly)

So 4 other civs have Polytheism. And using some other clues, it's not that hard to figure out who
* Plako, Locke and Lord Parkin are in Organized Religion
* Luddite founded Hinduism.

Yay! I've kind of given up tracking this kind of thing just because it has so much guesswork to the point of not even really being worth doing, but maybe an earlier Alphabet makes some sense. I only wish that there were say, any other benefits to going to Alpha....