[Spoilers] What's Sheaim to do? Irgy controlling Tebryn

[Selrahc]

Ravus tested it out in worldbuilder on a hotseat game because he was curious about the initial debates. A while after you all stopped discussing it. We weren't all holding out on you guys back then and sniggering about it.

[Irgy]

So, what's been happening in Sheaim lands?

Researched Deception. Joined the Undercouncil - and none too soon, there's two other members now and a high priority placed on burning the sage resolution. The revolt in the middle of a war hurt quite a bit, but what can you do.


Through the undercouncil, I met Mardoc. We've now had a few direct commmunications:

[COLOR="Magenta"]Turns out you were right, Undercouncil did cause us to connect! So finally I'm connected to everyone . I still will sail to visit you for the map knowledge, though.

I proposed open borders, but don't see any other immediately apparent deals worth making, since I will have Fish and Clams very soon. If I'm wrong - there's a resource you can connect easily, for instance, I'd be happy to trade with you. I'd also be interested in mana trades later on.

I voted for myself as head councilor of the Undercouncil - I intend to propose the Great Sage, then Smuggling Ports, Gambling Ring, and Slave Trade, in that order. Thoth may be able to join the Undercouncil as well this turn, but there's nothing we can do about that short of spiting ourselves and throwing away our bonuses.

And, we can finally plan war without having to go through WarriorKnight. I think Thoth probably guaranteed that you're going to put up a significant force when the time comes - my sympathies on Rosier, however. I do still intend to participate when the time comes.

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Greetings!

Good to finally be able to talk to you openly. Not that I was particularly hiding much before going through WK, but it just feels a little more comfortable.

I voted for myself on the CoE, just on principle, but I expect you have the tie-breaker (though I've never really been sure how that works?). In any case, I expect I'd propose similar things to you. I'd probably not prioritise smugglers' port quite so highly though, and would prefer to enlist the nightwatch rather soon to help me against Thoth's marauding Cultists.

Rosier was simply a bit of stupidity on my part. I had him exploring for no particular reason. He stepped outside WarriorKnight's borders for one turn and that was all it took for Thoth to make an opportunistic attack.

Here's some ideas for trades:
* World maps. I have quite a bit to offer with mine, I have received WarriorKnight's map as well as Mr Yellow's before his departure. So I've got quite a bit of the continent, and all the special features. Trading maps will also activate trade routes for both of us by revealing all of the common coast (as I've explored well past where your ship reached, so between us we have the whole coast).
* In the future, or really any time you'd like to, I can replace your gold-pearls trade with an identical one. You'll be helping the trailer rather than the leader then I can also possibly try and re-arrange my existing trades to free up some gems to trade to you.
* Shadow - You have the CoE holy city, I can only assume you intend to build the shrine. When you do, I'd like to borrow the shadow mana - primarily for constructing my Tower of Necromancy. Let me know what mana of mine you might be interested in. I can be quite flexible with the available options once I have researched sorcery, but in the meantime Death and Entropy (AV shrine once I build it) are certainly two of the better level 1 spell schools for example.
* A Chaos-Chaos trade, similar to one I understand you have planned with the Ljosalfar for Air mana, would benefit us both by giving a few free chaos 1 promotions.

Well, not sure what else to add at this stage. I hope your preparations are going well. Mine are getting completely disrupted by Thoth's harassment - and at no real cost to him, at least until I manage to take down some of the cultists.

Best Regards,
Irgy Arbandi[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]Hmm. As it happens, I did get Mr. Yellow's map as well - being one of the only people in the game to wish him well and help, if only slightly, paid off, it seems. It would be handy to know of WarriorKnight's land, though, and getting you activated trade routes would certainly help balance the game somewhat. Probably yes on this one, but let me think about it a smidgen.

I suppose we could bump up the Nightwatch a tad; it would be more units in the non-Thoth camp than the Thoth camp, anyway. I don't really know how the mechanics of the Undercouncil work, in any detail. Are we going to have to spend 50 turns to get all 5 resolutions in place?

Unfortunately, I can't cancel the gold-pearls trade, since it was part of a larger trade that included me getting a city site close to Thoth. Gems would be nice, though .

Your mana suggestions look good to me! I'm certainly happy to agree to the Chaos exchange - ideally the vast majority of the time one of us will have both Chaos sources. I don't know your plans, but I am just starting a significant push for Adepts, and free promotions are free promotions. Would it be possible to send over your Chaos from now until T150, which is when my Air and Water deals expire and I'll stop adept production for a while?

I'd be happy to trade the Shadow (or Sun) away (yes, Nox Noctis is calling me - I think it would really help defend against Thoth), and frankly, Entropy is extremely appealing in a civ that's likely to be stuck with Adepts for the most part, fighting a civ who's almost certainly building the Mines of Gal-Dur. Shadow - well, current ETA is quite a while, but I'll be hiring another Priest or two shortly to cut that time down. I have the Mirror of Heaven in my borders, though, so I have Sun mana accessible in addition to my own palace mana.

At the moment, my focus is still on expanding my economy and production capabilities, but then I still have 35 turns of NAP protection.

Anyhow, I'm sure we can find other points of agreement as time passes, so keep in touch.[/COLOR]

The war is going, well, pointlessly really. Thoth has one cultist in the east, who is busily killing a stream of skeletons. Hopefully this will frustrate him soon. I have two galleys nearby but don't rate my chances. I found out the hard way (well, hard-ish, it didn't cost me anything at least) that I can't send galleys after cultists in the ocean. So not just are they annoying by being amphibious but also by being ocean-travelling. So, I've researched optics and will build/upgrade myself some better ships that can chase him down.


He's also sending apparently three cultists from the west. I can see one in this screenshot, and another showed up at the end of the turn when Grottiburg's borders popped another ring. They're clearing my goblin fort for me at the moment, which is nice of him (kind of). I have triremes ready there as well as a lot of units. I really really don't want to lose the AV holy city, as surprising as that may sound...


You can also see there that my free slave that I got from a goblin attack has revolted and turned itself back into a warrior. Easy come easy go I suppose, shouldn't have left him on his own building cottages I guess.

Otherwise, well, I've built some more adepts finally, and expect to be churning them out fairly continuously in the future. I've settled the mana node to the northeast, a bit risky with that cultist there but it's inland so it should be ok. Optics was a painful tech diversion, but it's finished now. Everyone except me has currency, which hurts. I'm wondering whether I can afford to divert to it. It will take 4 turns, but will get me quite a lot of benefits for my trouble.

And here's some more screenshots. First, the cities two turns after declaring war, showing the changes in production. Mostly a lot of ships. Doubled spoilered for ease of viewing:

[SPOILER]

[/SPOILER]

And, for the ded-lurkers at least, demographics and graphs. Still last in everything, but not quite as far behind as I was worried I might be. These just lumped into the one spoiler:

[Irgy]

Oh, and some smack-talk. Only half the fun if I don't share it, really...

[COLOR="Yellow"]Fair enough.

It's not like we were close allies or anything.[/COLOR]

Well, evidently not indeed.

[COLOR="Yellow"]
Let me know when you get tired of having all your coastal improvements trashed. I'm willing to talk peace.

If the price is right.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]I don't think you quite get the concept of burned bridges. However, you are nonetheless right, everything and everyone has a price. So if you're willing to offer me fair compensation for your actions so far I might still consider it.

Irgy Arbandi[/COLOR]

[Irgy]

As I've announced elsewhere, I'm no longer able to continue playing this, and currently looking for a replacement. Any ded-lurkers here would have a head start on anyone else wanting to take over. I'll get to summarising the current situation in more detail soon. Probably centred around bringing my post #2 back up to date - it's not too far behind but things are happening quickly at the moment.

[Heisenberg]

Hope RL issues work out for you. It has been a pleasure ded-lurking you, and it was your link that had led me here to Realms from the civfanatics forums

I'd be willing to have a shot at PBEM with the Sheaim if you'll need a substitute.
Hope to still see you around the forums!~

[Irgy]

Hope RL issues work out for you. It has been a pleasure ded-lurking you, and it was your link that had led me here to Realms from the civfanatics forums

I'd be willing to have a shot at PBEM with the Sheaim if you'll need a substitute.
Hope to still see you around the forums!~

Well, you're the first and so far only volunteer. Since the tie-breaker is whoever gets in first anyway that means as long as you're sure you can make the commitment, you're it. I'll PM you the password once you confirm. Meanwhile, I'm most of the way through my write up of plans.

Of course, you're free to do what you want, but the plans will at least give you a starting point, as it's a bit overwhelming to decide what to do with everything. I'd really appreciate though if you consider things I've agreed to already as binding, as it's simply an unfair disruption to the game if diplomacy is completely reset as a result of a change of player.

[Irgy]

So, what have I missed since I last made an update? Well, some good news firstly. Optics came in:


I upgraded some ships to privateers, and built a few more. And used them to kill some cultists:


You can see above I've killed the one in the east, with no losses. The first withdrew (about 30% to win, 15% to withdraw), and the second finished him off at about 99% odds. Only 1xp to both though so no promotions there.

In the south, I was a little less lucky. One withdrew, but also did next to no damage. The next died despite (slightly) favourable odds. And the last finally killed one of the cultists, gaining 6xp in the process (I've since promoted it to combat 2). All up then, 2 withdrawals, 1 loss, 2 dead cultists. The surviving cultist ran away to the northwest, onto land so that it couldn't be hit by ships. One bit of stupidity - I thought deleting pyre zombies set off their explosion, but it turns out it doesn't I should have checked in worldbuilder first but this was between having very limited time and discovering I needed to quit completely, so I didn't. Not the end of the world, but a bit silly. I tried to slow the cultist with an adept, but it resisted.

Overall then, I've lost Rosier, 2 warriors, some skeletons (who cares - the xp he gained is since lost anyway), 1 pyre zombie (deleted) and 1 privateer. I've killed 2 cultists. Not such a great trade overall, but it was a surprise attack.

Otherwise, things are pretty much on track. I decided to whip a planar gate in the capital for 9 population, so it will be regrowing for a while now. Not sure it was worth it, but I do need to make use of the whip at some point and 9 pop is good value for happiness at least.

[Irgy]

Now, the plans.

My overall plan to win:

• Build an army consisting primarily of mages. The details of what I want to have in it can be found here. I'm currently churning out the adepts as fast as I can reasonably manage in order to support this plan.
  
• Try and keep something of a balance of power between the other civs. At the moment, this means bringing the Malakim back into line. Take advantage of my poor score to stay under the radar and out of the spotlight. Keep good relations with WarriorKnight and Mardoc in particular to keep me safe.
  
• Start building the towers, and concentrate on building at least one at a time but preferably two if possible. Use mana trades to support this plan. Build all of the towers in inland, defensable cities. If they end up one at a time, build them in the capital
  
• Once the small towers are complete, I can start on the big one. At around this stage everyone might turn on me. Hopefully they'll have their own distractions though. In any case, use the inherant advantage in fighting a defensive war to protect my tower cities. Magic and summoned creatures can take down any invading stack no matter how big or good quality the units might be, as long as we have the initiative, which fighting defensively will give.
  
• Finish the big tower and win.
  

Despite my poor position in general terms (GNP and production in particular), this plan is quite feasible and I think it could still lead to victory if well executed.

Short term plan:
Some of the details are in the post #2, which I'll paste the current contents of below.

Basically, I've chased off the current cultist threat, but need to keep an eye open for a more dedicated invasion. My combat 2 privateer will be quite useful for this. I also want to try and encourage Nyktorion and WarriorKnight to keep an eye out for anything else coming (with their hawks). Hopefully Thoth decides he has better things to do.

Cities should now get back to building the things I need the most, which is currently mainly adepts. However, I also want to be getting a great person out of at least Grottiburg and hopefully also Tongurstaad in time for the Arcane Lore bulb.

Tech wise, I need to calculate whether Currency is worth the detour, then get on with researching to Sorcery to set up the Strength of Will slingshot.

I'll settle the remaining two coastal cities only once it's safe. It might be worth considering settling the filler cities first. I think it's time to build Planar Gates as a priority over settlers. These are good to whip for high population.

In general, every city should be whipping every 6 turns or so if it can get away with it. I should let most of them grow into a bit of unhappiness first before whipping though, rather than working less than the maximum available tiles as often as I have been.

Post #2

Diplomacy summary:
[SPOILER]WarriorKnight as Einion Logos of the Elohim
My main neighbour, and my entire land border, with a capital basically directly northwest of mine. On friendly terms, with an NAP that's rolled on another 30 turns every time it's close to ending with little argument from either of us. We've agreed our settling border in almost complete detail.

Founded and running The Order.

Current deals:
[spoiler]

• NAP until T140 (was T80, then T110).
  
• Agreement to share the ice mana (what was I thinking... really... ?)
  
• Agreement for him to loan me 1 mana of a type I may request - within reason, he needs the appropriate tech to improve a mana node, although I may dispell it for him. Have informed him I will borrow nature mana at some point, but otherwise stick to death mana.
  
• Various settling agreements which constitute our border. These I have marked in-game.
  
• Open borders.
  
• We have traded maps.
  
• A gems for corn trade
  
• We've discussed in conjunction with Nyktorion some other mana trades, including, on our part, sharing Entropy and the Divination manas.
  

Communication History:

(TBD)

Nyktorion as Thessa of the Ljosalfar
Located far to the north. Quite friendly diplomatically for the most part.

Founded and running Fellowship of Leaves.

Current deals:

• Ale for sheep.
  
• A loan of corn (will be cancelled once he's able).
  
• Gems for cotton. I plan to switch this to wine for cotton, to free up the gems for Mardoc.
  
• We've negotiated general terms for how to go about mana trades.
  
• Fire mana for death mana. Currently implemented as two separate trades, for convenience of cancelling one or the other when needed.
  
• We've discussed in conjunction with WarriorKnight some more detailed mana trades, including, on our part, sharing Entropy and the divination manas.
  

Communication History:

(TBD)

Mr Yellow as Sabathiel of the Bannor
Elminated by first the Malakim and then the dogpiling Ljosalfar. They made contact with everyone before being wiped out, and we made a few deals with them.

No religion.

Deals made:

• We had open borders
  
• A map trade was made.
  
• In exchange for the above, I promised to loan him copper. However, upon learning of the intentions of the elves to finish him off, he decided there was no point in going through with the trade.
  

Communication History:

(TBD)

Thoth as Varn Gosam of the Malakim
Despite the civ being temporarily taken over by Sciz while Thoth was having technical difficulties, he appears to be a bit of a runaway at the moment, with the top score and general demographics values. Has an NAP with the Lanun until T170, the Elohim until T160, and the Ljosalfar until T150. All of us are planning to try and deal with him by T170 at the latest.

Currently at war with us, which started with him killing Rosier. He has since harassed me with cultists, two of which I've now killed with privateers. I've told him he's burned his bridges, meaning I have no intention to ever co-operate with him in the future.

Founded and running Runes of Kilmorph, although switched breifly to Octopus Overlords to pop his worldspell. Has also founded the Empyrean religion.

No deals made, and currently at war.

Communication History:

(TBD)

Mardoc as Hannah the Irin of the Lanun
Made contact

Founded and running Octopus Overlords. Also founded the Council of Esus.
Current deals:

• Traded world maps
  
• Open borders
  
• Chaos for Chaos - we lend each other our palace mana for 10 turns each for free promotions.
  
• I have an intention to free up gems for trade, probably in exchange for peals.
  
• He's shown interest in much of our available mana, and will eventually have Shadow to offer. Nothing concrete though.
  

Communication History:

(TBD)

[/SPOILER]

Tech plans:

Main path:

• Currency? Need to work out if it's worth the detour. Probably not while I don't have trade routes with Mardoc.
  
• Necromancy.
  
• Divination? Better to get this before sorcery for the pre-req bonus, however we might be in too much of a hurry.
  
• Sorcery.
  
• Corruption of Spirit.
  
• Arcane Lore (bulbed, hopefuly 2xsages), while building the Infernal Grimoire
  
• Strength of Will (from Griomoire)
  

Techs to look at afterwards (in no particular order):

• Any skipped in the above list.
  
• Mathematics - for gambling houses.
  
• Military Strategy -> Warfare - for the national and heroic epics.
  
• Alteration - for the tower.
  
• Elementalism for the tower, mainly just as a prerequisite to the Tower of Mastery.
  
• Fanaticism -> Malevolent Designs - for top tier evil/AV units. This is a possibility for the Divination tower.
  
• Pass Through the Ether - for Obsidian Gates, hopefully via The Nexus. These are good for their own sake and for Minotaurs. Note that this is a top candidate for sage-bulbing once I have Arcane Lore, in addition to being the most expensive practical option for the Divination tower.
  
• Engineering - for road movement, and for Guild of Hammers (especially if I never get around to getting Smelting).
  

Production plans:

General note: Need to build acolytes to spread AV to the eastern cities, as it's needed there for culture. Need to consider Prophecy of Ragnarok. Also need more Planar Gates. Courthouses would really help improve the GNP too, should probably consider whipping those in between other builds in most cities.

Galveholm:
[SPOILER]

Just whipped a Planar Gate. Should grow back to working all the tiles again before whipping. Building a temple of the veil now for four reasons; the well mutliplied free beakers, the extra sage slot, the ability to build a couple of acolytes for culture in the new cities, and the gate unit. After that build at least a mage guild (again, gate unit). If there's no infrastructure worth slotting in then just build adepts. Once the Tower of Necromancy is available though this is where to build it. It can be interrupted by whipping away excess population into either infrastructure or an adept, but otherwise concentrate on it fairly consistently.

Grottiburg:

Must work those two sages to try and pop a sage here for the Arcane Lore bulb. The library is to give a third sage slot, and three should be worked constantly once it's possible to. There's hammers in a privateer here but no urgency, the smokehouse should be built sooner rather than later. Need to get some workers here to fix the water-damaged tiles. This is also a city in which the acolytes could be built. Could also consider building Ritualists, one of which might be worth using for a temple in Tongurstad.

Tongurstad:

Building adepts mostly. Whipping them every 6 turns or so, no more or the unhappiness will get out of control. Consider throwing in a gate if it can be built in reasonable time (with a high population whip most likely). Working at least a sage, and ideally more. This could well be the best city to pop a sage/priest in for the Stigmata of the Unborn, although it might now pop a merchant as well. Ideally it should be just below the GPP required for a great person when Grottiburg pops one, and should then try and get one out quickly after that.

Graelingvig:

Just keep slowly building adepts here I think.

Steinvik:

Adepts, and a planar gate at some point.

Kuldevind:

Might as well finish off the privateer I suppose, but otherwise Mage Guild, adepts and gate for now.

Vargstad

Whip the granary next turn and start on a smokehouse. Need an acolyte here to work the tile 2W as a farm. This will then also allow the two forest grassland tiles to be farmed, at which point the city becomes useful finally.

Skadistad

Finish off the smokehouse with a whip when possible.

Nidhoggstad

Granary+Smokehouse here as well. Hopefully will get a free AV spread rather than order again.[/spoiler]

Great Person Plans:

Already produced:

1. Tephus the Mistwalker, who built an academy in Galveholm.
   

Planned:
Basically, the plan here is to generate as many sages as feasable before Arcane Lore is up to be researched. Then, bulb it with all of them, and hopefully use the free sage (if I don't miss it) to get the Stigmata of the Unborn. If I pop a priest somewhere, use it for the Stigmata instead of course.

[/spoiler]

And of course, feel free to ask any questions you like.

[Irgy]

Diplomatically, there's a few things that need to be done. Most people have basically got a reply pending. Mardoc I've made the world map trade with and the chaos-chaos trade in-game without actually having said anything yet. WarriorKnight needs to be asked about the NAP, as it's running out this turn. We should get that extended past T170. Nyktorion has offered to send some privateers, and needs to be filled in on the fact that we've dealt with the cultists we can see, for now at least. And finally Thoth needs to be taunted over having lost two of his precious 10 worldspell cultists

Here's a dump of the most recent emails. Sorry about some of the line breaks. From most to least recent, so read them from the bottom up.

Mardoc:

[COLOR="Magenta"]Turns out you were right, Undercouncil did cause us to connect! So finally I'm connected to everyone . I still will sail to visit you for the map knowledge, though.

I proposed open borders, but don't see any other immediately apparent
deals worth making, since I will have Fish and Clams very soon. If
I'm wrong - there's a resource you can connect easily, for instance,
I'd be happy to trade with you. I'd also be interested in mana trades
later on.

I voted for myself as head councilor of the Undercouncil - I intend to
propose the Great Sage, then Smuggling Ports, Gambling Ring, and Slave
Trade, in that order. Thoth may be able to join the Undercouncil as
well this turn, but there's nothing we can do about that short of
spiting ourselves and throwing away our bonuses.

And, we can finally plan war without having to go through
WarriorKnight. I think Thoth probably guaranteed that you're going to
put up a significant force when the time comes - my sympathies on
Rosier, however. I do still intend to participate when the time
comes.

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Greetings!

Good to finally be able to talk to you openly. Not that I was particularly hiding much before going through WK, but it just feels a little more comfortable.

I voted for myself on the CoE, just on principle, but I expect you have the tie-breaker (though I've never really been sure how that works?). In any case, I expect I'd propose similar things to you. I'd probably not prioritise smugglers' port quite so highly though, and would prefer to enlist the nightwatch rather soon to help me against Thoth's marauding Cultists.

Rosier was simply a bit of stupidity on my part. I had him exploring for no particular reason. He stepped outside WarriorKnight's borders for one turn and that was all it took for Thoth to make an opportunistic attack.

Here's some ideas for trades:
* World maps. I have quite a bit to offer with mine, I have received WarriorKnight's map as well as Mr Yellow's before his departure. So I've got quite a bit of the continent, and all the special features. Trading maps will also activate trade routes for both of us by revealing all of the common coast (as I've explored well past where your ship reached, so between us we have the whole coast).
* In the future, or really any time you'd like to, I can replace your gold-pearls trade with an identical one. You'll be helping the trailer rather than the leader then I can also possibly try and re-arrange my existing trades to free up some gems to trade to you.
* Shadow - You have the CoE holy city, I can only assume you intend to build the shrine. When you do, I'd like to borrow the shadow mana - primarily for constructing my Tower of Necromancy. Let me know what mana of mine you might be interested in. I can be quite flexible with the available options once I have researched sorcery, but in the meantime Death and Entropy (AV shrine once I build it) are certainly two of the better level 1 spell schools for example. * A Chaos-Chaos trade, similar to one I understand you have planned with the Ljosalfar for Air mana, would benefit us both by giving a few free chaos 1 promotions.

Well, not sure what else to add at this stage. I hope your preparations are going well. Mine are getting completely disrupted by Thoth's harassment - and at no real cost to him, at least until I manage to take down some of the cultists.

Best Regards,
Irgy Arbandi[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]Hmm. As it happens, I did get Mr. Yellow's map as well - being one of
the only people in the game to wish him well and help, if only
slightly, paid off, it seems. It would be handy to know of
WarriorKnight's land, though, and getting you activated trade routes
would certainly help balance the game somewhat. Probably yes on this
one, but let me think about it a smidgen.

I suppose we could bump up the Nightwatch a tad; it would be more
units in the non-Thoth camp than the Thoth camp, anyway. I don't
really know how the mechanics of the Undercouncil work, in any detail.
Are we going to have to spend 50 turns to get all 5 resolutions in
place?

Unfortunately, I can't cancel the gold-pearls trade, since it was part
of a larger trade that included me getting a city site close to Thoth.
Gems would be nice, though .

Your mana suggestions look good to me! I'm certainly happy to agree
to the Chaos exchange - ideally the vast majority of the time one of
us will have both Chaos sources. I don't know your plans, but I am
just starting a significant push for Adepts, and free promotions are
free promotions. Would it be possible to send over your Chaos from
now until T150, which is when my Air and Water deals expire and I'll
stop adept production for a while?

I'd be happy to trade the Shadow (or Sun) away (yes, Nox Noctis is
calling me - I think it would really help defend against Thoth), and
frankly, Entropy is extremely appealing in a civ that's likely to be
stuck with Adepts for the most part, fighting a civ who's almost
certainly building the Mines of Gal-Dur. Shadow - well, current ETA
is quite a while, but I'll be hiring another Priest or two shortly to
cut that time down. I have the Mirror of Heaven in my borders,
though, so I have Sun mana accessible in addition to my own palace
mana.

At the moment, my focus is still on expanding my economy and
production capabilities, but then I still have 35 turns of NAP
protection.

Anyhow, I'm sure we can find other points of agreement as time passes,
so keep in touch.

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]Irgy,

You have access to a lot of mana that I find interesting - fire, death, ice, entropy. I don't have nearly as much unique mana to trade for them, especially when you can get them from Nyktorion and WarriorKnight as well. What else are you interested in, that I could trade for access to your mana collection? I do have access to a number of happiness resources you probably don't, as one possibility. Maybe you'd be interested in a trade of Pearls indefinitely in exchange for access to your unique manas?

I don't need any urgently except perhaps Chaos for the free promotions on my adepts, but I want to start discussing it now, anyway.

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]In addition, Thoth has Hawks now. I won't be able to keep my land secret no matter what, it seems, so if you propose a map trade next turn, I will accept it.

- Mardoc[/COLOR]

Nyktorion:

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Hello

Hope all is well. Sorry to come to you with a bunch of requests like I'm about
to but that's the state my game seems to be in at the moment.

Firstly, I'd like at some stage to borrow the air mana, to give myself a bit
of a better shot in the naval battle against Thoth's cultists with Fair Winds.
I'm happy to work out something in the mana trading schemes to compensate.
Also, if you have any privateers you feel like sending my way it would be
greatly appreciated. I have Optics myself now, so if done correctly they could
easily be disguised as my ships. It's good for all of us to take down these
cultists. I don't know whether this is practical for you, but I thought I'd
bring it up anyway. You probably weren't expecting me to have optics, but I
need it so I've grabbed it.

Do you have an ETA on Metamagic? Not that it matters particularly, but I'd
love to get some mage eyes so I can see what's coming my way.

I've got some spare copper by the way, like WarriorKnight I popped some from a
mine recently. So let me know if you want it.

One other thing, I'd like to free my gems back up to trade to Mardoc. Is it
possible for me to switch the Gems-Cotton trade to Wine-Cotton at some point
in the future? Or let me know if there's something else you might want. You
can cancel the corn trade as soon as you're able to by the way, WarriorKnight
has his set up now.

I think that's about it. Hope all is well for you. I'm getting a little
screwed by the NAPs everyone else has, but at the end of the day he can't get
land units to me, so a little harassment on the water isn't going to kill me.

Best Regards,
Irgy Arbandi[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Lime"]Hi Irgy,

* Air Mana: I'm sorry, but that will be a problem in the near future. I agreed to borrow my source of Air mana to Mardoc at T137 for the free fair winds promotion, and after that, I'd like to have two of them myself when I upgrade mages. However, after the round of upgrades (which should be shortly after T150).

* Privateers: now that privateers could plausibly be yours, too, that is a very nice idea! This is a good opportunity to start some cultist hunting. After my current turn anarchy (I revolted to undercouncil; by the way: have there already been any votes in the undercouncil? I guess a head concilor should have been elected by now), I will be getting Bronze Working in 2 more turns (my own copper is already mined and connected). A borrowing of copper by you would of course help me to start working on privateers already 2 turns earlier. Still, I fear that this borrowing of copper might tip off Thoth (except for a few token warriors, I'm not using any other bronze-using units at the moment); with BW coming in quickly and slavery speeding production, I should be getting out the first pair of them quite fast with my own copper, too

* Metamagic mana: I'm currently in the process of building the settler to claim my second raw mana node, so the limiting factor will be Sorcery tech. My current tech plan is Bronze Working -> Sanitation -> Sorcery, so I expect Sorcery to come in shortly before T150 (and thus, meta mana should be coming shortly after that).

* Switching the gems/sheep trade into a wine/sheep one is completely fine with me. Feel free to switch this deal as soon as you like.

best regards,
Nyktorion[/COLOR]

WarriorKnight:

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Hi Irgy

I've connected the corn, so I've offered corn for gems in-game.

It seems the cultists who killed Rosier are indeed heading your way. I've attached a screenshot showing their current position. Both of them have Combat 3 and Command 1 in addition to Mobility. The one on the right also has March, while the left can promote.

Regards,
WK[/COLOR]

(this came with an attached image, showing the locations of three cultists)

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Gems/corn deal accepted. Thanks so much for the heads-up re the cultists.

Irgy[/COLOR]

Long recent chat with WarriorKnight + Nyktorion (almost entirely just between the two of them):

nyktorionciv: Sie sind in diesen Chatroom eingeladen worden!
warriorknightrb@gmail.com has joined
warriorknightrb: hi
me: hey
nyktorionciv: Hi to all here
warriorknightrb: guess we're all here, yay
me: probably can't stay but thought I'd say hi
8:34 PM warriorknightrb: so where we're we?
nyktorionciv: hmm, we were talking about what we use against Thoth
and particularly about Gilden Silveric
8:35 PM I hope Thoth won't get his counters against those first strikes in time
me: hopefully at least his cultists will be distracted wiping me out
or not, I might be ok
8:36 PM warriorknightrb: btw, those cultists aren't heading your way, i have a hawk watching them and will let you what they do
i doubt thoth will get shadow mana for blur, surely there are better uses for his mana
me: great
there's two harassing me - one from east so circumnavigated
but no losses yet
8:37 PM except of course rosy
nyktorionciv: well, I heard they took Rosier =/
warriorknightrb: he circumnavigated? wow, entirely possible though
nyktorionciv: the cultist who did the final blow will certainly become a monster now
yes, some turns ago, there was a cultist snooping around near my island
8:38 PM but he would have been quite quick if he is where Rosier was already
warriorknightrb: well, im not sure what to say other than advise you both to build boats
me: no the east one wasn't the rosier one
warriorknightrb: he has 10 cultists from his worldspell
8:39 PM i can see 3 of them in the south, and im fairly certain another was used for a temple
nyktorionciv: Well, I think he turned 2 or 3 into temples, but that still leaves enough of them
I have seen 1 in my northwest, and the one near my island
about the rest, I don't know
warriorknightrb: mardoc has surely seen some
8:40 PM nyktorionciv: many turns ago, I saw 2 or 3 of them on a rather large island south of the remnants of patria area
but they might be anywhere now
warriorknightrb: ah well, fortunately they're irreplaceable unless thoth goes back to OO
8:41 PM although Emp is more likely and more worrying
me: yep, if all goes well I'll kill a few and they're gone for good
8:42 PM nyktorionciv: Hmm, I hope he won't just decide to remain in the safe ocean with them
8:43 PM Anyway, I plan to have a few caravels ready at T150, when my own NAP with Thoth runs out
warriorknightrb: arent pirates buildable at optics and have the same cost with a higher strength?
8:44 PM at least, that's what i plan on building
nyktorionciv: right; they require some copper, though
and they don't upgrade from gallyes
8:45 PM warriorknightrb: in an amusing twist of fate, i popped a spare copper last turn
if you plan to upgrade though, then that's understandable
nyktorionciv: well, I want to upgrade the galleys I have
8:46 PM but I want some new privateers, too
warriorknightrb: ok, fair enough
im slightly conserned at our nap situation though, although theres not much we can do to make things better
8:47 PM nyktorionciv: I plan to get my own copper at some time (when I research towards sanitation), but that'll be after alteration (for that body node) and deception (for undercouncil)
warriorknightrb: irgy is already at war, nyktorion needs to wait another 20 turns, I need another 30 and mardoc another 40
8:48 PM nyktorionciv: well, I doubt that Thoth will go at Irgy full-out
there's just nothing he'd win out of that
except for doing some destruction with his spare cultists, of course
warriorknightrb: true, but unless you think you have a really good chance against thoth 1-1, we'd essentially be attacking him at different intervals, and that will not work
8:49 PM nyktorionciv: but I don't expect Thoth to actually be able to keep anything he could take from you, irgy
warriorknightrb: or unless you wait/defend for 10-20 turns without a NAP for me/Mardoc to be free
nyktorionciv: I think I'll be able to at least withstand Thoth well until you can join
8:50 PM warriorknightrb: well, if you think so, then I believe you
just don't lose your army before we can join in
nyktorionciv: I'll take care
8:51 PM the only thing that's really getting me the mre I thin about it
are those cultists
warriorknightrb: yeah, those things are really painful if your on the coast, which we all are
8:52 PM it's like water walking chalid at priesthood, only you can get several of them
8:53 PM the only upside i can thing of is that thoth is last in the turn order, so depending on how your NAP is signed you can attack them first
nyktorionciv: Mine is until "eot 150"
8:54 PM so I should be able to hit first on my T151
warriorknightrb: yep, pretty much the same thing for me, except till EoT160
8:55 PM nyktorionciv: The optimal scenario would be
if Mardoc built Gibbon
and somehow managed to cast impersonate leader on Thoth
8:56 PM warriorknightrb: weren't we discussing banning that?
ar at least me and irgy
*or
nyktorionciv: yes, but as far as I understood, nothing actually came out of that discussion
warriorknightrb: well, i doubt mardoc will be keen on that, he already told me he plans to have a complete OO army on T170
8:57 PM nyktorionciv: the discussion just broke off after some people said whether they were fine with a ban
warriorknightrb: saverous, stygian guards maybe hemah
8:58 PM i doubt he's want to change that, especially since there's no guarantee that he can even get gibbon close enough for the spell
nyktorionciv: well, then he should be researching mind stapling pretty soon
warriorknightrb: well, he has until t170, plenty of time
no rush since he's the only one with OO
8:59 PM although if he did pull that off in a critical moment, oh that would be awesome
practically guarantee its banned for all future RB games
nyktorionciv: well, he should still get some XP on Saverous if he wants him to be useful
9:00 PM warriorknightrb: well, if your that fussed about it, maybe you should talk to him about it?
9:01 PM after all, didn't you get currency recently?
nyktorionciv: Yup, maybe I should generally start some Thoth-war-preparation talks with him, too
warriorknightrb: well, it should be the 4 of us since that's what it is
nyktorionciv: Yup, I got currency recently
9:02 PM well, as long as Mardoc and Irgy don't have contact, that'll be a bit tedious
warriorknightrb: ah yes, forgot about that
nyktorionciv: but I hope that obstacle will be out of the way soon, too
maybe we'll have a 4-way chat at some point?
9:03 PM warriorknightrb: mardoc has hunting though, ive offered for him to rebase to my city for a quick contact with irgy, havent heard anything from him about that though
with a hawk i mean
4 way chat? plausible but theres little chance of it becoming a regularity
nyktorionciv: that would be the easiest solution
9:04 PM even once before the NAPs run out would already be quite practical, I think
warriorknightrb: well, it all depends on what mardoc wants to do though
9:05 PM map trade is probably a yes either way since we need to know as much as possible about our enemy
9:06 PM nyktorionciv: with Mardoc knowing a completely different side of Thoth's empire than we all do, that sounds quite appealing than
warriorknightrb: well, i guess we need to hear what mardoc and irgy think though
9:08 PM BTW, while mardoc has told us what he's likely to field, i dont really know what you guys will be fielding (except mages) and i dont think either of you know what im bringing
9:09 PM nyktorionciv: So for my part, my land army will still be archers, priests and Gilden
augmented by mages now, of course
and then I'd like to add those caravels/privateers on the sea
warriorknightrb: i think we'll all need naval units
9:10 PM nyktorionciv: I guess for you it'll be monks and Valin and Corlindale?
warriorknightrb: yeah, and adepts too
im probably going to get some rangers too
nyktorionciv: just a word of caution
9:11 PM I realised that Rathas have a +50% bonus against recon units
warriorknightrb: i know that, but thats the only bonus against recon units, i think all units can get shock and cover with a few getting scourge
9:12 PM plus despite being slightly more expensive than normal tier 3 units , they can be strength 9 with bless and poison blade
9:14 PM nyktorionciv: ah, that's where the nature mana gets interesting
though youÄd need mages for poison blade
or Corlindale
warriorknightrb:
thats why i really like ffh, or at least this game, everything comes together nicely
9:16 PM btw, do you think its worth me sending a confessor to bless your units?
nyktorionciv: I'd definitely like that
warriorknightrb: i wont be able to bless your units until my NAP expires due to proxy warring, but it should be very nice
9:18 PM nyktorionciv: in the meantime
while we get our mana trades going
maybe I'll pick up enchantment II with one mage
Flaming arrows will be quite nice, too
9:19 PM hmm, archers + bless + flaming arrows would be 6/7 already
warriorknightrb: well, since your dexterious i imagine it could be quite nice
nyktorionciv: yeah, especially against those chariots, my archers might be quite motivated to do some offense, too
9:20 PM warriorknightrb: well, still stronger on the defense, but chariots are weaker on the defense, so it balances out
6/7 vs 7/5, and archers are cheaper since their tier2
9:21 PM (assuming iron)
nyktorionciv: assuming iron?
warriorknightrb: iron chariots, thoth is probably going to get the mines'
9:22 PM id be very suprised if he didn't
nyktorionciv: ah, I was somehow relating it to the archers
warriorknightrb: well longbows can use metal, but archers cant
nyktorionciv: that's why I was so confused
9:23 PM though even bronze longbosw
would already be quite nice t3 for me
6/6 + bronze + flaming arrows = 8/8
9/9 when blessed
warriorknightrb: plus bless for 9
ninja'd
nyktorionciv: :P
warriorknightrb: meh
9:24 PM i can barely get 9 strength myself with rangers, although isnt bowyers fairly expensive?
i find it is when im playing amurites for firebows
nyktorionciv: right, bowyers is expensive
9:25 PM even more expensive than sorcery or animal handling
9:26 PM yeah, and as amurites, you'd want another very expensive tech from another tree on top of that (arcane lore)
warriorknightrb: arcane lore isnt that bad, save yourself 3 sages and you can bulb it as soon as you get sorcery
assuming dain, i cant imagine valledia pulling that off
nyktorionciv: well
3 sages is also quite something
9:27 PM warriorknightrb: get one free from undercouncil :D
nyktorionciv: at least, you immediately get one back
9:28 PM warriorknightrb: or maybe thats too SP orientated
9:30 PM nyktorionciv: hmm, both bowyers and arcane lore seem nice, but too expensive compared to other priorities
spell extesion II, longbows :D ...
warriorknightrb: for me righteousness is lovely, but thats twice as expensive as your arcane lore...
9:31 PM Sphener, paladins :D...
nyktorionciv: well, if you could get apaldins, they'd stomp over a lot of stuff now
=)
warriorknightrb: well, if i could get auric, i could stomp over a lot of stuff right now, but that's not going to happen is it?
9:32 PM nyktorionciv: Well, it's going to happen even less than righteousness
Well, I need to be gone for about half an hour or so now
If you won't be there after that
warriorknightrb: might be here when you get back, nothing else to do tonight
nyktorionciv: I'd like to say now, it was a pleasure to chat with you again
9:33 PM see you ^^
warriorknightrb: that was a lovely chat too, cya
24 minutes
9:58 PM nyktorionciv: Hi again
6 minutes
10:04 PM warriorknightrb: hey
10:05 PM one good thing is that irgy is getting all the messages so we dont need to forward anything to him
nyktorionciv: yup, convenient
10:06 PM warriorknightrb: so uh, where did we leave off last time?
nyktorionciv: we were talking about nuce things that are just too expensive
warriorknightrb: ah yes, talking about things which would be extremely painful for thoth that were unreasonable
nyktorionciv: though there are at least theoretical options to get them, like tower of divination or infernal grimoire
10:07 PM but don't think they'll apply to us right now
warriorknightrb: well, i think only irgy will ever get infernal pact for the grimiore
nyktorionciv: well
grimoiring malevolent designs might be a theoretical option for him
10:08 PM if he could pull it off, then those beasts of agares would make life really difficult for anyone who's against him
10:09 PM warriorknightrb: i guess, but im not sure if he has priesthood or fanaticism yet, also that he's mentioned that it'll be a while before he gets infernal pact
10:10 PM arent they painful to build? 4 pop loss and 4 turns revolt
nyktorionciv: according to my tech screen in the foreign advisor, he doesn't have priesthood yet
warriorknightrb: you have the game open?
10:11 PM nyktorionciv: well, they're painful
but I think they'd be very much worth it
i have civilopedia open, and my collection of screenshots from the game
warriorknightrb: fair enough
10:12 PM what else? strength of will?
nyktorionciv: hmm, even arcane lore would be pushing it price-wise
warriorknightrb: theology
nyktorionciv: same
warriorknightrb: (keep in mind these are all unreasonable options remember)
nyktorionciv: though the first to profit from that would be Thoth himself, with his certainly >26XP cultist
10:13 PM right xD
warriorknightrb: not really, you need the state religion for high priests
nyktorionciv: Let Irgy get his black dragon, and let that dragon slay the Malakim single-handedly?
warriorknightrb: cultists cant upgrade into runekeepers
nyktorionciv: right
10:14 PM warriorknightrb: ah, but the malakim will have teutorix by then too
nyktorionciv: though some speakers might be worth a religion switch?
warriorknightrb: krakens can be very painful, strength 17 in the ocean
i think
10:15 PM still, it'll just mean that we cant do anything against thoth on the ocean, and mardoc will have to do everything
nyktorionciv: good thing theology is so unreasonable at this point in the game ^^
warriorknightrb: I wish I could get something better than unyielding order though, summons treants is awesome
10:16 PM nyktorionciv: unless thoth gets a tower of divination, that is
he starts with 3 of the 4 required mana kinds for that one
warriorknightrb: nope, 2
mind and sun
life is alteration mana
10:17 PM although theres better things for the malakim to take than Theology
nyktorionciv: right, he doesn't have spirit mana, just life
warriorknightrb: worst thing i can think of is probably warhorses with those high promoted swords/chariots
10:18 PM yep, spirit mana is supposed to be my speciality
nyktorionciv: though warhorses won't fit nicely together with his plan to get the mines instead of iron working
10:19 PM warriorknightrb: well theres the flaw then
maybe strength of will? if he gets enough multipliers and charasmatic, he can build instant archmages!
keep in mind thoth is the tech leader so arcane lore shouldnt be much of a problem
10:20 PM nyktorionciv: how much XP would instant archmages with CHA be again?
17? 18?
warriorknightrb: oh, maybe commune with nature. it's possible to use high priest spells with druids instead of high priests
something like that
10:22 PM nyktorionciv: okay, but they'd need the divine promotion from somewhere, though
from being upgraded?
warriorknightrb: yep, his cultists can becomd druids who can summon krakens
10:23 PM if he's planning on switching to Emp, then we could have to face Crown of Brilliance
although Chalid is probably deadly enough
10:24 PM fortunately, he'll need animal handling and feral bond, so if he does go for that we'll have plenty of warning
nyktorionciv: THough feral bod has its own nice goodie already, with the Baron
10:25 PM warriorknightrb: and you get kithra also
nyktorionciv: only problem, it's another 2 sorcery-kind techs
warriorknightrb: but apart from that there's little use in feral bond
for you true, but thoth has a massive gnp so we could expect it from him
10:26 PM fin, commerce bonus, RoK...
at least the golden age is over
10:27 PM nyktorionciv: I am actually rather glad he doesnt go for a second GA with that bard
warriorknightrb: me too, although that does leave the question of what will he do/has done with the bard
10:28 PM nyktorionciv: our two border cities are too far away from each other for culture bombing to have too much effect
and my own border city already has a great bard, which Mr. Yellow had put in there
10:29 PM warriorknightrb: i knew he had one
sorry, i guessed he settled one and you confirmed it for me
10:30 PM nyktorionciv: was actually quite blatant from the victory conditions screen
warriorknightrb: anyway, i havent seen one on my border, although there's a few different potential places where he could bomb my border city
nyktorionciv: its culture was going up by exactly 12 per turn
10:31 PM warriorknightrb: well, not everyone checks at stuff like that, i was just going off the culture graph
10:32 PM i dont know if he'll use it against mardoc, especially since they have a border agreement
maybe he got it simply because it only took a turn?
nyktorionciv: yup
he got drama just 1 urn after his last tch before that
10:33 PM warriorknightrb: although that doesnt answer the question of what hell do with it
he'll
10:34 PM maybe keep it as a sanctuary counter? i don't know
10:35 PM nyktorionciv: sanctuary counter sounds plausbile
if he chooses the "spend immediately for 4k *2/3" culture
10:37 PM warriorknightrb: yeah, although since irgy is likely to send units through me, i cant use it without totally isolating irgy's army, thoth might realise that
10:38 PM oh well, maybe he's already settled it somewhere and this is a hypothetical discussion
nyktorionciv: hmm
problem is
10:39 PM the bard being settled won't show in any obvious way at this stage of the game
10:40 PM warriorknightrb: then it's fairly useful since we're busy running around paranoid wondering what he could do with it, when he's already used it
10:42 PM speaking of using great people, i was suprised he built the RoK shrine with it
10:43 PM sure thats his religion and its spread around a lot but better military options would be the Emp shrine or the altar
nyktorionciv: you expected him to get the Empy shrine instead?
well, that might mean at least
10:44 PM warriorknightrb: possibly, it gives a boost to disciple units and gives thoth another awesome sun mana
nyktorionciv: maybe he's not that much into the arcane line after all?
I wouldn't be sad if our instant mage/sand lion discussion was for moot
10:45 PM warriorknightrb: me neither, although the alternative chalid/ raider chariot and rathas arent much better
10:46 PM nyktorionciv: And if he has Rathas, what would he need a second sun mana for?
10:47 PM warriorknightrb: well, free scorch promo's, more units with blinding light, Auraelus and chalid strength affinity...
10:48 PM nyktorionciv: hmm, chalid affinity, yeah
so
maybe, he doesn't want chalid so much either...?
10:49 PM or he went more for the short term shrine benefits, and wil get another prophet for the empy shrine some time?
warriorknightrb: well, we cant assume the best case scenario, then when its worse then that we areen't prepared for it
10:50 PM another prophet is possible, although he isn't PHI and has minimal priest slots
nyktorionciv: well, he can get a number of priests
warriorknightrb: 3 at max
10:51 PM nyktorionciv: 2 kinds of temples (soon 3) + tablets of banbur
+ desert shrine
warriorknightrb: no, more with RoK shrine (whoops)
hmmm, that sucks
back to the drawing board
10:52 PM he can actually get 7 priests at most
nyktorionciv: okay, so if he wants another prophet, he can get one rather easily
10:53 PM warriorknightrb: its probably safe to assume that
and might build the Emp shrine with it
10:55 PM nyktorionciv: so, what do we make out of all that? for me, that underlines again the importance of mobility in our armies
be ready to strike before he can crown/blind/move around/whatever you
and the more we get into the tech tree
10:56 PM the more important this mobility (and inability to just hole up in a fortified city) becomes in my eyes
warriorknightrb: definately
my main army should be able to move 3 tiles with haste
nyktorionciv: so, that means
Body I
10:57 PM Moblity I
Spell Extension I
warriorknightrb: well, im not summoning...
nyktorionciv: are very nice and important promotions
(Spell Extensio I IF you are summoning )
10:58 PM warriorknightrb: although with all the desert lying around (at least in my area), either im only going to be able 2 moves a turn or i waste an adept springing every turn
by 'waste' i mean leave him behind the rest of the stack unprotected
10:59 PM just a problem of thoth having nomad
11:00 PM nyktorionciv: hmm
why do you have to waste him?
ahh
sorry
warriorknightrb: assume all desert right?
nyktorionciv: the restriction is to moving only 2 tiles per turn
warriorknightrb: 2 moves to enter, thoth only needs 1
nyktorionciv: not 1
11:01 PM warriorknightrb: y'know, snowfall might mean that i dont have to waste an adept, but I might want to actually use the collateral from the spell every know and again
11:03 PM although if thoth indeed has rathas and chalid, well i can't imagine that itll survive for a long time
11:05 PM anyway, its getting late, i better go
thanks for the uber length chat
11:06 PM cya
nyktorionciv: Thanks as well
see you, good night
warriorknightrb@gmail.com has left
nyktorionciv has left

[Heisenberg]

I've just played turn 141, settling in fine

I've been in touch with WK and Mardoc, who has been kind enough to... remind me of Irgy's diplomatic agreements which I do intend to keep to.

Diplo update:
Signed NAP with WK till t170. 30 turns of secure borders would certainly be welcome.

I'd post up further details soon :neenernee