[Spoilers] What's Sheaim to do? Irgy controlling Tebryn

[Heisenberg]

Well, glad you think so, I still think it looks terrible. Actually, the tech lag and the demographics look terrible, the graphs don't look quite as bad as there's a lot of history in there where I wasn't behind everyone. If things pick up when my cities all start to grow like mad soon then it could be ok.

Well I'd only start to worry when they are able to field next tier units against you... Right now they still do not have visible counters against PZs so I'm not too troubled by it. Do keep an eye out for WK going for Poisons, iirc devouts *might* be able to cast life 2 Destroy Undead. (I'm not next to my PC so I can't check )

You might want to get the Gates up with their requisite buildings soon though, since gated creatures do take quite a long while to pop, compared to WK being able to spam out Crusaders, Confessors, Chariots etc.

Diplo-wise... Doesn't look like Lanun is very keen on joining in... His coastal cities are terribly vulnerable to cultists.

I just noticed you were searching for a possible Hyborem player, my good friend and MP buddy would be most willing to have a shot at it. He has been playing FFH for a bit now, and has had experience in simultaneous turn multiplayer games but not PBEM, and is "unspoiled" in terms of this PBEM game. Of course, I wouldn't give away your plans to him, or possibly de-lurk from this thread in the event that he's playing. :neenernee
Do let me know if you'd need the extra player~

[Irgy]

Well I'd only start to worry when they are able to field next tier units against you... Right now they still do not have visible counters against PZs so I'm not too troubled by it.

I'm troubled in the "imminent doom" sense. It's just that, if I plan to win this game, being significantly behind in the demographics is not a good way to go about it. I'm not afraid of what they have now, but what they'll get sooner than I will because their GNP is so much better.

Do keep an eye out for WK going for Poisons, iirc devouts *might* be able to cast life 2 Destroy Undead. (I'm not next to my PC so I can't check )

Just checked myself. They can't, as they only have Channeling I. But, what they could do is upgrade to a Confessor, and gain Channelling II while keeping Life I. So he can indeed build unlimited Life II promoted units by that method. Well spotted.

You might want to get the Gates up with their requisite buildings soon though, since gated creatures do take quite a long while to pop, compared to WK being able to spam out Crusaders, Confessors, Chariots etc.

I am indeed a little concerned about the ongoing delay in getting any gates built. However the trouble is that I still think it's true that individually, everything else I'm building is more important at this stage. Feel encouraged to suggest specifically where or when you think I ought to be building them based on the contents of my production plans in post #2, although I warn you you'll probably only result in me arguing the case for whatever I'm building there.

The problem really is that I don't have enough cities. They're all either new and getting their base infrastructure set up still, diverted doing something specific and important, or in the case of Graelingvig just a poor location and unable to do much. To fix that, I need to build settlers not gates though, for now anyway. And courthouses soon, before maintenance from a few more cities kills me.

Diplo-wise... Doesn't look like Lanun is very keen on joining in... His coastal cities are terribly vulnerable to cultists.

I haven't posted this news yet, but he's signed an NAP to T170 now. So that's that basically. I'm now trying to talk him out of any sort of significant co-operation with the Malakim other than the peace deal.

I just noticed you were searching for a possible Hyborem player, my good friend and MP buddy would be most willing to have a shot at it. He has been playing FFH for a bit now, and has had experience in simultaneous turn multiplayer games but not PBEM, and is "unspoiled" in terms of this PBEM game. Of course, I wouldn't give away your plans to him, or possibly de-lurk from this thread in the event that he's playing. :neenernee
Do let me know if you'd need the extra player~

Thanks! Cyneheard has basically volunteered, so we'll go with him first, but if there's a problem I'll chase that up. As you know from my tech path there's no real hurry.

[Irgy]

Well, we missed CoE. To Mardoc of all people. Didn't really expect that.


Also you can see Thoth has the Bone Palace, as expected, and will no doubt have the Great Library soon too. Also, Rosier has taught a couple of other people how to ride his horse - currently the only horse in the kingdom.

Not getting Deception in such a hurry will probably be a good thing in a lot of ways. Whether I get it just for undercouncil and the sage is something I'll consider later. Undercouncil would also give us contact with Mardoc. Because I'm no longer racing to Deception, I decided to do the beaker efficient thing and grab Sailing before Trade too.

Finally, here's an overdue shot of Skardistad. The rice is improved now too.

[Irgy]

So, as some of you may know already, I'm having some Real-Life dramas at the moment, and the upshot in this instance is that my updating on this thread is going to become less frequent. Basically, I'll try and give a good update once a week, and might make a post about any critical news within a day or so, but otherwise it might become a bit quiet. My apologies to all those who were hanging on my every word

What's happening at the moment? Well, the news in brief:

The wrong starsign. The right one might get me back into this game...:


I've researched Trade:


I had switched to necromancy next. However, it turns out there is some urgency to joining the Undercouncil, despite having just missed the CoE. Bah. Apparently Mardoc has an existing deal with Thoth to share the Undercouncil, which will become active as of T135. So, I'm researching Deception to get in on the fun in time. Otherwise I may miss the Great Sage resolution, and then there's no point bothering. As it stands, I'll get slightly more beakers back from the sage than I lose on Deception, and a number of other benefits from Undercouncil following on from that.

Some other news summarised in the events log here:


From the top:

• WarriorKnight has taken out the barb city and settled near the corn and Tomb of Succellus. I've actually made a deal with Nyktorion to get some corn for a few turns while I wait for WarriorKnight to have his ready, so there was no big rush on that anyway.
  
• My skeleton has killed that combat 3 griffon! You can see him looking proud of himself on the left. Any suggestions for what to name him now?
  
• Two great people born, and I have no idea where. Although I do notice that Thoth has Drama now, so that probably explains the bard. I expect I'll find out who got the prophet when a shrine is founded in the near future.
  
• Thoth has grabbed Empyrean. He's also running Arete and building the mines though. We expect he'll build the mines, then switch to Empyrean for the heros.
  
• Grottiburg whipped a temple, and is now running 3 specialists while slowly growing back and building a library.
  
• Galveholm has finished building the brewery (no whip). Since then it's also whipped a public baths and is otherwise working on a library.
  
• Thoth has made some civic switches.
  
  And here's the current tech situation, including Nyktorion's now.
  
  
  I'm actually on about a par with Nyktorion. He has his religion, I have mine. In exchange for Hunting, Archery, Priesthood, Necromancy, Optics (which he only got from a hut), I have Bronzeworking, Masonry, Construction, Sanitation, Horseback Riding. I'm happy enough with that on the whole. It'll be interesting to see where Mardoc's tech situation stands when I meet him, too. The problem though at the moment though is that I'm still behind in GNP, and that means I'll be slipping behind in tech more and more as time goes on.

[Irgy]

Updated my planning post. Quoted the current contents here for posterity. The main thing worth reading that's new is the production plans, which have all new screenshots of the current state of the cities.

Diplomacy summary:

WarriorKnight as Einion Logos of the Elohim
My main neighbour, and my entire land border, with a capital basically directly northwest of mine. On friendly terms, with an NAP that's rolled on another 30 turns every time it's close to ending with little argument from either of us. We've agreed our settling border in almost complete detail. We've had a few gmail chats, and generally tend to keep each other informed of what's going on. He can be a little reluctant to volunteer information about his plans, although if I ever ask him things directly he'd probably answer.

Currently, WarriorKnight, Nyktorion and myself are in discussions planning what to do about Thoth.

Founded and running The Order.

Current deals:
[spoiler]

• NAP until T140 (was T80, then T110).
  
• Agreement to share the ice mana (what was I thinking... really... ?)
  
• Agreement for him to loan me 1 mana of a type I may request - within reason, he needs the appropriate tech to improve a mana node, although I may dispell it for him. Currently borrowing his Palace water mana, although that will end soon. Have informed him I will borrow nature mana at some point, but otherwise stick to death mana.
  
• Various settling agreements which constitute our border. I'll post an image of this later on. To sum up though, in the west he's claimed a cows-dyes site west of Tongurstad, then I've claimed the clams-dyes site to the south of it, and he has the corn-mana site to the west of it. That basically completes our western border. To the north, he will settle a mana-dragonbones site just north of Graelingvig. To the northeast, I've claimed the fish-rice-pig-wines site, and while it hasn't been confirmed yet, I'm probably unlikely to get anything north of there.
  
• Open borders.
  
• We have traded maps.
  
• An ongoing gems for beer trade. This will switch to gems for corn once his corn is ready.
  
• We've discussed in conjunction with Nyktorion some more detailed mana trades, including, on our part, sharing Entropy and the Divination manas.
  

Communication History:

(TBD)

Nyktorion as Thessa of the Ljosalfar
Located far to the north. Quite friendly diplomatically so far. In the back of my mind I'd originally envisaged talking WarriorKnight into a joint attack on the elves. However their friendly nature, along with the fact that they're not as close as I imagined (in fact as far away as anyone else really), makes me more inclined to work alongside them.

Currently, WarriorKnight, Nyktorion and myself are in discussions planning what to do about Thoth.

Founded and running Fellowship of Leaves.

Current deals:

• Ale for sheep.
  
• A loan of corn until WarriorKnight connects his.
  
• Gems for cotton.
  
• We've negotiated general terms for how to go about mana trades.
  
• Fire mana for death mana. Currently implemented as two separate trades, for convenience of cancelling one or the other when needed.
  
• We've discussed in conjunction with WarriorKnight some more detailed mana trades, including, on our part, sharing Entropy and the divination manas.
  

Communication History:

(TBD)

Mr Yellow as Sabathiel of the Bannor
Elminated by first the Malakim and then the dogpiling Ljosalfar. They made contact with everyone before being wiped out, and we made a few deals with them.

No religion.

Deals made:

• We had open borders
  
• A map trade was made.
  
• In exchange for the above, I promised to loan him copper. However, upon learning of the intentions of the elves to finish him off, he decided there was no point in going through with the trade.
  

Communication History:

(TBD)

Thoth as Varn Gosam of the Malakim
Despite the civ being temporarily taken over by Sciz while Thoth was having technical difficulties, he appears to be a bit of a runaway at the moment, with the top score and general demographics values. Has an NAP with the Lanun until T170. Currently WarriorKnight, Nyktorion and myself are planning what to do about the situation, with the potential for an attack around T170.

Founded and running Runes of Kilmorph, although switched breifly to Octopus Overlords to pop his worldspell. Has also founded the Empyrean religion.

No deals made.

Communication History:

(TBD)

Mardoc as Hannah the Irin of the Lanun
No contact with this civ. The other southern civ, but located far to the west - we're effectively at the far opposite ends of the map as far as contact is concerned. I have an extremely unenviable position relative to him, being significantly closer by sea than by land. Made worse by the fact that this is not true of any other civ (except arguably WarriorKnight). The two of us are teamed up in FFHPBEM6, which means we'll likely have a bit of a rapore, but there's no reason why that has to extend to remaining at peace. He is apparently currently sending a workboat our way to make contact.

I've had some indirect communication, though WarriorKnight, and will make genuine contact via the Undercouncil soon.

Founded and running Octopus Overlords. Also founded the Council of Esus.

No deals nor communication.[/SPOILER]

Tech plans:

Main path:

• Deception (just for the Undercouncil).
  
• Necromancy -> Divination(could be bulbed, but I probably won't) -> Sorcery.
  
• Priesthood/
  
• Corruption of Spirit.
  
• Arcane Lore (bulbed, hopefuly 2xsages), while building the Infernal Grimoire
  
• Strength of Will (from Griomoire)
  

Techs to consider throwing in, but timing uncertain (in no particular order):

• Mathematics - for gambling houses.
  
• Currency - for trade routes
  
• Military Strategy -> Warfare - for the national and heroic epics.
  

Techs to look at afterwards (in no particular order):

• Any of the previous list not yet completed.
  
• Alteration - for the tower.
  
• Elementalism for the tower, mainly just as a prerequisite to the Tower of Mastery.
  
• Fanaticism -> Malevolent Designs - for top tier evil/AV units. This is a possibility for the Divination tower.
  
• Pass Through the Ether - for Obsidian Gates, hopefully via The Nexus. These are good for their own sake and for Minotaurs. Note that this is a top candidate for sage-bulbing once I have Arcane Lore, in addition to being the most expensive practical option for the Divination tower.
  
• Engineering - for road movement, and for Guild of Hammers (especially if I never get around to getting Smelting).
  

Production plans:

General note: Need to consider Prophecy of Ragnarok. Also need a number of Planar Gates - currently none planned, but I'm not completely happy with this.

Galveholm:
[SPOILER]

Reached happy cap, so whipped a public baths. Building library and temple of the veil for sages and extra commerce. After that my try and sneak in a planar gate. Eventually I want to build the towers here.

Grottiburg:

Turned into a gpp pump for the AV shrine. Building a library while running three specialists. With what production is then left it will build a smokehouse then finally get back to building adepts.

Tongurstad:

Whipping settlers in between building adepts. No longer trying to get a merchant/priest, so will probably run scientists here instead.

Graelingvig:

Finally reached its stable population of 5 working both the golds. Building a library pureply for the +25% bonus, after which it will concentrate on slowly building adepts.

Steinvik:

Adept production for the forseeable future.

Kuldevind:

Whipped granary, and on to smokehouse. Will probably then switch to Adept production.

Vargstad

Slowly building a granary and smokehouse in order to get off the ground. Hoping for religion spread here.

Skadistad

Slowly building a granary and smokehouse in order to get off the ground. Hoping for religion spread here.

New settlements:
I plan to settle the city near the goblin fort, to start the job of claiming the mana node nearby.[/spoiler]

Great Person Plans:

Already produced:

1. Tephus the Mistwalker, who built an academy in Galveholm.
   

Planned:
[list=2][*] Sage/Priest in Grottiburg, for Stigmata of the Unborn. ~T145
[*] Merchant/Priest/Unknown in Tongurstad. ~T160?
[*] Sage in Galveholm, to eventually bulb Arcane Lore
[*] Sage in Grottiburg, to eventually bulb Arcane Lore
[*] Undercouncil sage, to eventually bulb Arcane Lore
[*] Arcane Lore sage, will likely build an Academy in Grottiburg (AV holy city)
[*] Mixed great people to follow.
[/list]

[Irgy]

Well, as some of you may already know, Rosier is, well, fallen. In a new and less desirable sense.

[COLOR="Yellow"]Hi,

As you will see when you start your turn, I've DOWed and killed Rosy. Having him in range of two Cultists was far too tempting a target to pass up.

Thoth[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]I can understand the temptation, but consider your bridges burned.

Irgy Arbandi[/COLOR]

I was just in the process of sending him home, having decided this whole exploration thing was a bit pointless. Took a shortcut that moved him out of WK's borders for one turn, and that was all it took. I was a little unlucky in that not one but two cultists just happened to be in range. The cultist shown below is not the culprit, not sure why that one's even injured.


In hindsight it was completely idiotic, of course. But that's hindsight for you.

Losing Rosier hurts, but I can deal with it. He was more of a bonus than a central element. However, the bigger problem is potentially yet to come. Now that he's at war anyway, Thoth is all the more tempted to come knocking at my door with all those cultists he has. He's already sent his circumnavigating cultist off the east coast in to hassle my newest city there.

I have something of a 2x2 matrix game here. If I don't go all out building defences, and he sends a lot of cultists, I'm screwed. If I do I'll hold out and it will hurt him, although in the long run it will hurt me a lot from an already poor position. If I build units and he doesn't attack I'll hurt my economy and adept production for nothing. The best outcome is I bluff but don't build a lot of military (I can still build adepts, which will put my power up but wouldn't help my defence significantly), while he decides against risking the bulk of his cultists. To summarise,

My payoff matrix:

Code:

Defend  Bluff
Attack   1       0
Retreat  2       4

His:

Code:

Defend  Bluff
Attack   0       3
Retreat  2       1

Numbers made up and approximate of course.

My current plan is to build at least a few ships immediately, with which to harass his cultists. Hopefully it will be enough to put him off, at which point I can get back to adepts. We'll see anyway. On the whole, I'd prefer to bluff simply because, with my current poor overall position, anything but the best result is going to cut me out of any remaining hope of eventual overall victory. I'm hoping that he on the other hand will expect me to play for survival.

[Ravus Sol]

With the loss of Rosier have any of your plans changed? Economy or War Unit development wise?

EDIT: aside from the bluffing and naval unit counter to cultists

[Irgy]

With the loss of Rosier have any of your plans changed? Economy or War Unit development wise?

EDIT: aside from the bluffing and naval unit counter to cultists

It certainly opens up the option of switching to another religion. The only thing holding me to actually running AV now is Sacrifice the Weak. Not to be sneezed at mind you, but worth considering the alternatives. I'd still research Corruption of Spirit and build the Infernal Grimoire first of course.

The only really viable one I'd say though is Council of Esus. Most of the others have had their main cool things used up by others already. CoE will let me build Gibbon, but that's about it for the most part. Not really sure it's worth switching just for that. It does open up the option of WK and I making a combined Corlindale-Gibbon sacrifice to use the Impersonate Leader ability on Thoth. Could be a useful last resort. It'll all feel a little dirty though after I argued so hard to leave it included as an option Still it's Thoth's own fault for killing Rosier and giving me the option really, isn't it.

[Selrahc]

It certainly opens up the option of switching to another religion. The only thing holding me to actually running AV now is Sacrifice the Weak. Not to be sneezed at mind you, but worth considering the alternatives. I'd still research Corruption of Spirit and build the Infernal Grimoire first of course.

The only really viable one I'd say though is Council of Esus. Most of the others have had their main cool things used up by others already. CoE will let me build Gibbon, but that's about it for the most part. Not really sure it's worth switching just for that. It does open up the option of WK and I making a combined Corlindale-Gibbon sacrifice to use the Impersonate Leader ability on Thoth. Could be a useful last resort. It'll all feel a little dirty though after I argued so hard to leave it included as an option Still it's Thoth's own fault for killing Rosier and giving me the option really, isn't it.

Impersonate leader doesn't work in multiplayer.

[Irgy]

Impersonate leader doesn't work in multiplayer.

Doesn't work at all? Well that's amusing then. We had a fairly long debate in the tech thread about nothing in that case. Are you sure about that though? Nothing n the manual about that though. I admit I've never tried it myself - it's kind of awkward to test things in multiplayer because there's no worldbuilder and even just clicking through some turns takes longer.