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RBPB4 [SPOILERS] - De Gaulle of the Egyptians

Quite a bit of diplo just recently. I'll summarise it as best I can below.

Rego started up a chat yesterday, and amongst other things was very keen on finding out how long our NAP is with Plako and whether we'd be willing to not renew to distract Plako while he (presumably) goes after WK's cities. (I'm not sure exactly what's supposed to be in that for us...? But that's typical of Rego, I guess... naked self interest to the max. lol) I was vague regarding our NAP with Plako and didn't give him any significant details. If he's intending on sniping some cities of WK's, that could be good for us since it might strain relations between Rego and Plako a bit. I know that if I was the one stomping through a much weaker rival's territory, I wouldn't want someone else barging in on the picture.

Next, Plako came to us asking if we'd heard of any plots against him, so I mentioned about Rego asking us not to renew our NAP. Plako then kept hinting towards this not being the first plot against him, and that he suspected we'd seen other emails doing the rounds. I took that to imply someone had likely already tipped him off about Locke's earlier (failed) plan to close borders, so I figured there was no harm in sharing the details of that. After all, we were the ones rooting against that the hardest - arranging a bunch of private chats to try to make sure the plan didn't succeed. The truth hardly puts us in a bad light. smile

The full chat with Plako is below.

Plako: Hi
7:15 PM
me: Hi there
7:16 PM Plako: Just curious if you've heard anything about anti-plako group. I've heard rumours that there is one forming
7:17 PM me: Nothing much really. Rego chatted to me this morning asking about whether I had a NAP with you and for how long. I was pretty vague in reply.
7:18 PM Plako: Strange. Rego himself hinted about it wink
me: Heh, really? Amusing...
Plako: So he is forming it LOL
7:19 PM me: I guess so. What did he tell you? All he said to me was that he wanted to feel out how long NAPs were lasting.
Obviously I didn't give him any important details
In fact I didn't really give him any details, heh
7:20 PM Plako: He warned me that there was few weeks back couple of efforts and he didn't support it, but now there is 3rd roound and he is considering to be supporter
Of course he excpects something in return, if he doesn't join
7:21 PM me: There have been two other efforts to arrange alliances against you??
Seems Rego knows more than I do, lol
That or he's "embellishing" rather a lot...
7:23 PM Plako: he is talking 3rd round of emials I'm not quite sure what it means
Maybe you've got some of those also
Could you give more info about them. Who are the most influential agitators?
7:24 PM me: I'm not sure if he was joking, but he seemed to imply he'd be keen for me to cancel a NAP so that he could take some of WK's land with you more distracted. Not sure exactly what was supposed to be in it for me though, even if I wasn't allied with you. :P
Well I haven't heard anything about outright alliances
7:25 PM There was a bit of talk a while back about getting people to close borders with you, but luckily I managed to help discourage that...
7:26 PM Plako: ok
Good to hear you weren't on board
So who was initiator?
7:27 PM me: Locke was the big pusher, obviously WK was keen too
Plako: Ok. thx
7:28 PM me: I ended up sending vague replies to those who seemed keener, and talking privately with others who weren't keen to ensure they didn't close borders
Plako: So he is playing it dirty behind the scenes
WK is natural of course
7:30 PM me: Indeed. I was surprised actually... first time I'd ever seen a mass email to non-allies. Kind of unusual...
7:31 PM I haven't encountered that before in a Pitboss. Obviously Locke has a somewhat unique approach to diplomacy. :P
Plako: We haven't had much dialogue, but it has been mostly friednly
Seems to have slid civ skills though
*solid
7:32 PM me: indeed
7:46 PM me: "Of course he excpects something in return, if he doesn't join" - Anyway, amusing that Rego apparently talked about a phoney alliance that he made up in the first place... I guess effectively trying to give himself leverage if he agreed not to be in the "alliance" he made up himself. Crazy. :P
7:47 PM Quite funny though... "what will you give me so that I opt out of this thing I made up in the first place"? Hehe... cagey I guess.
7:48 PM I haven't had the best experiences with Rego in diplo myself, so this just opens my eyes even more and makes me all the more cautious about him in future...
7:49 PM Plako: I don't know, if you've read his other games especially PB1. this is something I can easily belive him trying to cook up
me: I haven't, actually
I only read PB2 in full, and he went out early in that one
7:50 PM Plako: ok. He had a very good thread in PB1 so, if you've time it is good read
me: I got the impression just from my initial diplomacy that he was pretty cagey though... e.g. constantly asking for information but rarely answering my questions unless I was very persistent
7:51 PM ok, I'll check it out later
got to head out very shortly though
Plako: ok
7:52 PM me: anyway, good to have these suspicions about Rego confirmed
To be honest I'm not that comfortable about having him as a long-term neighbour, so perhaps if you're not impressed with him either then we might have good grounds for cooperation in future
7:53 PM Or against Locke for that matter, since I wasn't too impressed with him trying to bully people into his earlier plan about closing borders despite the majority clearly not being keen
7:54 PM Plako: That is certainly an option. We don't have NAP and as you might guess we've some discussions going on concerning the inheritance of WK
me: yeah, I could guess that
well, if he turns out to be a problem for you, I'd certainly be open to tackling him on two fronts at once smile
7:55 PM anyway, that's probably a little while down the track
I've really got to head off now
Plako: ok cya
7:56 PM me: bye for now smile
Rego followed up a bit later with a mass email to everyone except Plako and WK, trying to stir up an anti-Plako sentiment amongst the masses.

Hi guys,

So over the past day or so, I've talked to some of you about what I called ... "the plako problem" :-)

WarriorKnight is going down hard as most of you know, which is going to leave plako with twice the land of everyone else. I've been trying to talk to him about it, but he doesn't appear to be willing to cede any of the lands, including open lands that were north of Greece and closer to us.

So the question is what, if anything, are we, as the community of other civs going to do about it? Like I said, I've chatted with a few of you, but the feeling that I've been getting is that nobody really wants to do anything right now.

I understand that things aren't always that simple - most of you are very far away and can't really send military - and I agree, military intervention at this point probably doesn't make sense. But I've heard reluctance to cancel NAPs, or not renew them, or close borders.

And that's fine if that's the consensus. Without really getting into specifics, I will say that we in Zululand are willing to do some things that plako probably wouldn't like, but we're not going to do it on our own.

So are there concrete suggestions that each of you would be willing to take? Or do we just punt it and say that we'll deal with plako later (gulp!)

dan.
regoarrarr
zulu
I really wasn't keen on this idea, since even aside from our alliance with Plako, not renewing our NAP with him doesn't benefit us at all. In fact, it mostly benefits Rego... so I guess it's no surprise he's the one initiating this campaign.

I decided to pass on the email to Plako, since I have no interest in agreeing to Rego's plan anyway. Besides, if the last round of mass emails was leaked to Plako (as I suspect from the way Plako phrased his comments to us earlier), then it's fairly likely that with another mass email to the same group of folks, the same leak will occur again. So I figured we might as well get in ahead and use the opportunity to garner some goodwill with Plako. smile

(By the way, as an aside... I honestly don't get this whole mass-emailing thing. Between hard allies it's all well and good, but between people whose intentions you're unsure of - most of whom you have no specific ties to - what's the point? I don't see how it accomplishes anything unless everyone in the game is in an incredibly dire situation with one clear runaway to battle - which is not the case here yet. The only thing a mass email really seems to do in a non-urgent setting like this is to give some people the opportunity to leak information and curry favour with the target.)

Anyway, I chatted with antisocialmunky (Plako's dedlurker) for a bit, then sent the email along with the following header.

Hi Plako and ASM,

Looks like Rego is indeed trying to initiate something bigger... no doubt that he's the main force behind this now, lol. I've copied an email sent by him a couple of hours ago to everyone except you and WK. Just remember, you didn't hear anything from us. wink

Seems like he's basically trying to rally everyone against you, mainly through the NAPs but possibly via other means he hasn't made clear yet. Of course, as your long-term secret ally we won't be standing for any of this. smile However, I'll see how far I can get with vague replies, and report any further information I can gather about his intentions. Just don't tip him off about what you know.

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin

[...]

Incidentally, as I mentioned in chat to ASM... it seems things are working out quite well for both of us so far. We're easily maintaining our top positions in the game, which is of course all the more reason why we should keep this friendship and alliance going. I think that pretty soon everyone's going to be rather keen to get us at each others' throats, which of course would be in neither of our interests. (Although the rest of the world would love it, of course - the two top dogs stagnating themselves in a war against each other.)

Anyway, not really much else to add... I just wanted to reiterate how good it is that we have this mutually beneficial secret alliance going. If you feel so inclined, I'd be happy to extend our deal beyond turn 180 whenever you'd like, to further strengthen our bond. Just let me know. smile


Cheers,
LP
So hopefully this will accomplish several goals at once. It should improve our own relations with Plako, potentially being an opening for securing even longer-term cooperation; and in addition it will hopefully give Plako a good reason to dislike Rego, which would of course be nice for us. I guess we'll see what happens.
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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Here's the full (fairly long) chat with antisocialmunky from a few hours ago, for the record. Not much I haven't already mentioned, just discussing the other players in the game - mostly Rego. The general sentiment from antisocialmunky seems to be that he's not particularly keen on Rego... not surprising given Rego's rather ambitious plans regarding WK.

me: Hi there smile
9:46 AM
antisocialmunky: Hi
9:47 AM me: as you probably know, I chatted with Plako last night and we figured out that Rego seems to be up to something
9:48 AM Just got confirmation of this an hour or so ago
antisocialmunky: Oh really?
me: Will forward it through, but remember you heard nothing from me smile
antisocialmunky: Rego's always up to something
yeah
me: Heh, yeah
antisocialmunky: secret pact
9:49 AM me: He's trying much more overtly to get people against you... no doubt that it's coming from him now :P
As your long-term ally we obviously won't be standing for any of that smile
antisocialmunky: lol
9:50 AM me: anyway, I'll send the email shortly so you can see for yourself
antisocialmunky: I wonder if it has anything to do with WK's ongoing demise
me: most likely, I guess
antisocialmunky: Have you heard anything about WK sneaking a settler off to the north?
on a galley
9:51 AM you might want to forward the information to me
plako does not auto-direct
me: I'll put both of you on the "to" form smile
antisocialmunky: cool
me: Haven't heard anything about that with WK
Although I know that it's been a popular tactic in many past games
9:52 AM antisocialmunky: Well
I tried to get Rego in a previous life to do it
me: Don't know where he'd go though, it seems that lake only opens into Adlain or Rego's land
antisocialmunky: and Plako managed to do it with GLH
me: Ah, ok
antisocialmunky: well Rego was the one who mentioned seeing a galley with settler going up there
9:54 AM me: ah, ok
9:55 AM well if Rego's keen on taking some of WK's lands, I presume said Galley/Settler wouldn't last long anyway, even if it does exist.
9:56 AM antisocialmunky: What's your take on Rego anyway?
me: Basically, I'm not that enthused about him
9:57 AM Most of my experiences with him have been that he's very keen to get any and all information he can from you, but refuses or ignores questions that you have to ask him.
9:59 AM I guess he's probably quite a good diplomat, although a lot of the time he's not very good at concealing his naked self-interest. wink
antisocialmunky: that's true
we've the same experience
me: I mean, everyone's interested in themselves to an extent, but Rego seems to take it to extremes :P
antisocialmunky: well
me: ah, ok
interesting to know
antisocialmunky: there's a reason
10:00 AM why he died so quickly in PB2
me: heh, yeah
antisocialmunky: he planted a city in someone else's first ring
me: overambition
yeah, I saw that
10:01 AM no amount of diplo can talk people out of getting angry with you in that situation wink
antisocialmunky: I'm actually more curious about the situation up there
Luddite is starting to become a monster
10:02 AM And locke isn't doing particularly badly
me: I've been somewhat concerned about Luddite myself
10:03 AM Basically I'm just hoping that Mackoti is a good enough player to hold him off for a while (which he actually seems to be doing ok so far, aside from a few initial mistakes)
antisocialmunky: Yeah, we saw that Luddite was doing really well for a little bit
then kinda stalled out
me: Locke's definitely the firm third place after us two
10:04 AM He's played a very solid game
antisocialmunky: yeah, for not murdering a neighbor
me: Have you got graphs for both Luddite and Mackoti?
antisocialmunky: he's doing quite well
me: There are some pretty wild power fluctuations there which tell a bit of a story
antisocialmunky: Not right now I believe we lsot luddite
do tell tongue
10:05 AM I'm sure Ioan isn't as much of a push over as WK is
me: Basically they've been going up and down out of phase, though Luddite's still on top overall
antisocialmunky: some of his decisions have been a little...
me: Mackoti's grew, grew and grew, then crashed in one turn, then grew really fast again
Yeah, I've been watching the war with WK
10:06 AM some of his moves have made me facepalm a bit...
antisocialmunky: sounds like large portions of the PB4Earth population was whipped away
like what?
me: like leaving that forested hill next to his capital open, leaving his copper open, not attacking out of Corinth before it's too late
10:07 AM I mean, either way he's not going to win, but he didn't have to lose this badly
"sounds like large portions of the PB4Earth population was whipped away" - where do you mean?
10:08 AM antisocialmunky: oh the Ioan - Luddite war
10:09 AM me: oh yeah, definitely a fair bit of whipping going on there
antisocialmunky: yeah...
10:10 AM good for us I guess wink
me: indeed
antisocialmunky: thanks for the message
10:11 AM me: no worries smile
things are working out quite well for both of us... we're easily maintaining our top positions in the game, which is of course all the more reason why we should keep this friendship and alliance going
pretty soon everyone's going to be rather keen to get us at each others' throats
antisocialmunky: indeed
and misdirect everyone else
I'm not sure if we should tell you this
me: which is of course completely in their interests and not in ours at all
antisocialmunky: as negotiations are ongoing
10:12 AM but Rego is trying to get all of WK's unsettled land basically
which is about 1/2
me: hmm, that's rather... ambitious
antisocialmunky: yeah well
its Rego
10:13 AM me: given that he hasn't done anything to warrant taking it?
heh, I guess so :P
antisocialmunky: He wanted to do a last minute intervention
since impis are 2 movers
I'm not sure what's going to happen with negotiations
me: ah, right
10:14 AM antisocialmunky: but I suppose we should give you something for forwarding us Rego's email
me: of course, there's nothing for you guys in that, and everything in it for him...
ok, thanks
antisocialmunky: well, he's willing to see us some choke points
and we actually have 0 economy right now to take it
so we'll see, like I said, we haven't decided anything yet
*cede
me: ok, sure
10:15 AM I kind of expected your economy must be fairly low
we're one city behind you and hurting a lot, and we don't have that much military
antisocialmunky: mixed blessing
yeah, recently Plako posted our power graph
it was pretty hilarious
me: heh, yeah
you're beating everyone else by loads, apart from luddite
10:16 AM antisocialmunky: yeah
what's Ioan's power?
me: He's third I think
antisocialmunky: slightly lower?
okay
me: Luddite's slightly behind you, then there's a bit of a drop off to Ioan, then there's WK, and then everyone else I think
10:18 AM I just got graphs on everyone last turn, don't know if it'll last though
antisocialmunky: yeah
well I actually have tyo get going
I need to get my data together for my project
10:19 AM me: ok, no worries
see you around
10:20 AM antisocialmunky: see you
thanks again
me: np
bye
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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SleepingMoogle approached me about a NAP - apparently concerned about his Workers. I didn't see any reason not to sign a NAP with him, so we've now got Moogle added to the list. Our NAP with him lasts until turn 185 (1250 AD).

Also got a reply from Plako in response to our emails.

Hi,
Thank you for letting us know Rego's plans. And I agree that NAP extension would be good idea to strengthen our bond. What about extension to T200?

Best regards,
Plako
Success! I'll see if I can talk him up a little bit from T200, but either way an extension of our NAP with him would be great.
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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City count at 300 AD:

Plako - 18
Rego - 18
Us - 17
Locke - 14
Luddite - 12
Nakor - 12
SleepingMoogle - 11
Adlain - 8
Mackoti - 5
WarriorKnight - 4
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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We were lucky enough to get two free spreads of Christianity last turn - to Leptailurus (our new city on the Horse island) and Acinonyx (our first Horse city). According to the F7 screen, Christianity has already spread to as many pop points as Buddhism (14%), and is fast approaching the world leader, Confucianism (21%).

We'll get a Great Person in 3 turns - it'll be roughly 50% odds of a Prophet, 35% of a Scientist and 15% of a Merchant. Let's hope we get lucky with the Prophet. smile

As well as that, we'll finish the AP in 4-5 turns, for a nice hammer boost across the empire.

We should reach 20 cities within the next 10 turns.
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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Reached an agreement with Plako. We've formally extended our NAP to turn 200. We've also arranged a clause where the NAP will automatically upgrade to turn 220 once we reach turn 147, unless either of us objects before then, in which case it will remain at turn 200.
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
Reply

So, the new NAP situation is as follows:

Rego - 170
SleepingMoogle - 185
Nakor - 200
Plako - 200 (220 automatically in 20 turns if not opposed)
Luddite - 210

Only notable person missing is Locke now. Not sure we need to bother signing anything with him for now, although we might want to consider it before Astronomy. Don't know how open he is to NAPs anyway (my impression earlier was that he thought they were pointless for distant civs), but I guess we can see.

Plako's NAP currently overlaps with Nakor's, but that couldn't be helped without tipping him off too much. It's not that big a deal though, since they're both in the south and Nakor is the least concerning of all our neighbours on the threat scale. The alternative was an overlap of Plako with Luddite, which would have been far more concerning. In any event, if the NAP is automatically extended with Plako then we'll be back to a non-overlapping situation soon enough. If it isn't, we'll have 50+ turns of notice that something is up. wink
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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By the way, Luddite made peace with Mackoti a couple of turns back. Don't know how long that will last, but it's an interesting development anyway.

WarriorKnight lost a fourth city to Plako; he's down to three now. The city he lost was pretty much his last hope; he had a large stack there and his only Copper source. Looks like he's pretty much finished.
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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Metal Casting is in. Cheap Industrious Forges started across the board.

Next up: Iron Working (1 turn, thanks to overflow).

We can now crack 300 in GNP - as far as I'm aware, this is the first time in the game that anyone has reached that point. And we're not even running binary. Not bad. smile

[Image: Civ4ScreenShot1521.jpg]
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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Okay, so we got a Great Scientist. Not ideal, but not bad. We have a few options as to what to do with him.

(1) Bulb Philosophy (1380 beakers). This would require us to research Alphabet first. The religion's already gone, though Angkor Wat should still be available if we want to bother with it. Pacifism would be nice, but probably not appropriate given we're not Spiritual and need to milk Organized Religion for the free missionaries and extra build speed as much as we can right now. The main purpose for bulbing Philosophy would be to put us closer to Liberalism, though I'm not sure we could beat Locke in a race anyway. The big downside is that all our beakers get sunk in a tech we don't really need at the moment.

(2) Settle in the capital for 11.1 beakers/turn initially, going to 11.7 beakers/turn shortly when we build a Confucian Monastery, and 12.3 beakers/turn once we get a Hindu Monastery (which I hope we can do soon). We'd also get 1 hammer/turn, for what it's worth. The downside is that it'll take us about 100 turns to reach the equivalent beakers that a Philosophy bulb would net us. (Actually a bit shorter since once we get Representation, our gain from the settled GS will go up to ~20 beakers/turn.) The upside is that we'd be spending those extra beakers on techs we actually need right now, not significantly down the line.

(3) Build an Academy in some non-capital city. The best we could do at the moment would be Evermore (where the Academy would initially give us ~8 beakers/turn) or Felidae (~7 beakers/turn). In the long term this might net us more beakers than settling in the capital. (Not sure about once we factor in a switch to Representation down the line, though.) The downside is a smaller short-to-mid term payoff.

(4) Attempt to trade him with someone else. Though I'm not sure if this would be even possible right now.

Any thoughts or input would be appreciated. We need to make a decision in the next few hours. smile

Incidentally, we'll now switch into max Priest mode to try to ensure we get a Great Prophet next. We'll also get National Epic out ASAP to speed it up as much as we can.
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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