Uncommonly Good: A Story of Elves

[Mardoc]

I'd say the temptation to pop the dungeon will be tough to resist, but I'll try to resist it. I make no promises, however. In SP I almost always pop them right away, but the consequences are obviously much lower. :P I won't be popping the Pyre, because I believe the Epic dungeons have even nastier consequences, plus if I don't pop it, I only need to road it connect the resource, yes?

No, don't do it! Mostly because we don't even have a warrior yet ; even something like dwarfs vs lizards could be a major headache. Plus, random techs are from those available to us, so its payoff can increase with time.

Of course, if you do it and get a Disciple of Leaves, well, I'll be applauding your brilliance .

You're right on the Pyre on both fronts. We may eventually want to pop it, but waiting until we can replace the fire node and handle anything that comes out would be optimal. The biggest risk is a neighbor finding it and popping it for us, though. I'm not sure what we can do about that risk, short of popping it ourselves and dealing with the consequences.

I suppose the other question is, how do you feel about win or die scenarios? There's not a ton invested in this game yet, and popping the dungeons/pyre could potentially give us a huge advantage or end it right now. Although even there, a huge advantage may turn into dogpile-bait.

And way to go Ravus, giving us lots of reasons why Thessa could have been a good idea. :neenernee

[Mardoc]

The mystery 6 manufacturing persists, and the Rival Worst Food is 3, so I’m not sure how that fits with Mardoc’s possibilities.

Well, I think it rules out the Plains Hill + Plains Hill forest. Plains Hill plus Remnants on a plains tile is still possible, depending on whether we think Ravus would give that to someone.

Or, well, Rawkking is in fact going for settler or granary first!

[Gaspar]

Not going to multi-thread quote that, but appreciate what you're doing for the post count. I'll definitely do something semi-creative tonight to balance the content with entertainment, though.

Re: the 6 MFG, I'd pretty much take to the bank its forested plains marble or ivory plus plains hill plant. Pretty clear once you reminded me of the palace hammer. I highly doubt Ravus would let someone get the RoP at their capital. That's way too good.

Not a ton invested in the game yet? Did you see those "Better Know an Opponent" posts? In all seriousness, I think I'm generally in favor of taking the risk and popping the stuff yourself so that nobody can get cute near your borders. At least if you're the one who does it, you know right away and can prepare for it. If someone else does it, you might not find out until you've got a mistform eating your city garrison. That's why I'd like to settle the pyre sooner rather than later, which makes BW more appealing, since its easier to come by than KotE. By the by, am I correct in thinking that if nobody pops it, I only need KotE to build Fire I Adepts, rather than Elementalism if it gets popped? Or do we need Elementalism either way? I'm not popping anything until we at least have a warrior in the capital, regardless, but yeah, I'm somewhat inclined to pop rather than ignore. I'm not really interested in doing the surround the dungeon with units gambit either, just seems a little too gamey for my tastes. Its FFH, we're supposed to want adventure!

Re: Grand Menagerie, I actually had a similar thought when I saw the jungle. Usually the Gorillas and Tigers are the hardest part. Of course as Elves, Tigers are automatic, so its really just the gorillas. Still a ways away of course, but its worth something just for style points if nothing else.

I have bigger early game strategy post coming up shortly. Mostly its questions to Mardoc and/or the lurkers, but I'll touch on the Bronze Warrior issue there.

[Mardoc]

By the by, am I correct in thinking that if nobody pops it, I only need KotE to build Fire I Adepts, rather than Elementalism if it gets popped? Or do we need Elementalism either way? I'm not popping anything until we at least have a warrior in the capital, regardless, but yeah, I'm somewhat inclined to pop rather than ignore. I'm not really interested in doing the surround the dungeon with units gambit either, just seems a little too gamey for my tastes. Its FFH, we're supposed to want adventure!

You're ok with thread spam, but not with surrounding dungeons? Ok....

Seriously, yes, if we keep the Pyre unpopped, then KotE is all we need to get started. Which is a fairly strong argument for attempting to keep it intact, not counting the whole 'not dying to epic monsters' bit. Of course, we'll want one or more of the node-building techs anyway, so we can get to mages.

Re: Grand Menagerie, I actually had a similar thought when I saw the jungle. Usually the Gorillas and Tigers are the hardest part. Of course as Elves, Tigers are automatic, so its really just the gorillas. Still a ways away of course, but its worth something just for style points if nothing else.

Well, yes, it's worth style points. It's also 80 hammers for +2 happy and a free Carnival in every city. Plus, if we're serious enough about our animal friend hunting, up to an additional +5 happy and +15 culture/city (and if we're lucky, spider pens for free silk, too!). That all adds up to potentially +8 happy/city if we're good enough at our animal farming. If you want to delay running Guardian of Nature so that we have Spiritual religion and civic flexibility, here's an excellent way to do it!

[Gaspar]

You're ok with thread spam, but not with surrounding dungeons? Ok....

Not generic thread spam, but I think all our spam has been content filled. If we were just posting youtube links and one word answers I'd disapprove of that as well. I'm not unwilling to surround a dungeon, but I just think it goes against the spirit of the game.

Seriously, yes, if we keep the Pyre unpopped, then KotE is all we need to get started. Which is a fairly strong argument for attempting to keep it intact, not counting the whole 'not dying to epic monsters' bit. Of course, we'll want one or more of the node-building techs anyway, so we can get to mages.

Certainly we will. I was just thinking that if we used Blaze to clear jungle, we could do it faster without also having to both research Elementalism and build a node. I suspect if we don't go the BW route, we'll end up having to pop the pyre to prevent a neighbor from doing so, unfortunately.

Well, yes, it's worth style points. It's also 80 hammers for +2 happy and a free Carnival in every city. Plus, if we're serious enough about our animal friend hunting, up to an additional +5 happy and +15 culture/city (and if we're lucky, spider pens for free silk, too!). That all adds up to potentially +8 happy/city if we're good enough at our animal farming. If you want to delay running Guardian of Nature so that we have Spiritual religion and civic flexibility, here's an excellent way to do it!

I think the likelihood of getting that many animal pens is probably unrealistic, but whatever we manage, upping the happy cap before going full on GoN makes a lot of sense to me. I don't see any reason not to try and get AV/Savants before going to FoL full time, and certainly that coast there plus that free Fishing makes the idea of grabbing a few Cultists appealing as well. Plus, long term, going Evil and/or Neutral for a little bit opens up the Undercouncil eventually, which is vastly superior to the crappy Overcouncil. Would love some cheap Gambling Houses and the ability to buy slaves.

All of this is well down the road. As both you and MBTM have alluded to, one of the major difficulties of FFH is how it makes you want to go down multiple paths, particularly given all the techs are expensive. I'd be very surprised if our early tech plan wasn't Farms/Cottages/Pastures -> God King -> FoL, but no plan survives contact with the enemy. In a bit of foreshadowing for my later post, my biggest fear is that I still think Sheaim are the civ most likely to be south of the jungle, from my experience with this map script, and Pyre Zombies are going to force us to make some tough decisions. Hopefully its like PBEMIII and we have the Elohim as a buffer, or I'm reading too much into the script and the zombies are on the other side of the map, but I'm not counting on it.

[Man Behind the Mask]

Not generic thread spam, but I think all our spam has been content filled.

Agreed!














I should probably add some more here....

I'm not unwilling to surround a dungeon, but I just think it goes against the spirit of the game.

I'm not taking the blame when it all gets messy , but my personal feeling is that the expense and effort of surrounding is excessive. QUESTION: Does the recon "better results from villages" also apply to lairs etc?

I'd be very surprised if our early tech plan wasn't Farms/Cottages/Pastures -> God King -> FoL, but no plan survives contact with the enemy. In a bit of foreshadowing for my later post, my biggest fear is that I still think Sheaim are the civ most likely to be south of the jungle, from my experience with this map script, and Pyre Zombies are going to force us to make some tough decisions.

Just remember you need to reach the end of that plan for the worldspell. Without at least the deterrent of the treants, there is a much greater chance that you're quite literally toast.

[Gaspar]

So I posted a turn report here, and somehow I lost it. Let's see if I can reconstruct.

Basically, this was the scouting from last turn, revealing banana in the south and deer in the north. That deer in the north means that site has a ton of food, and we should probably plant a pigs/corn city and then the fish/deer site on the coast. It also means I can build the crappy Elven HA replacement. Hurrah.





I also decided to work the ToS+AF tile rather than the Corn after borders popped. This adds a turn to Agriculture research, but takes a turn off the worker, so they'll both complete at the same time. I figured with lazy elven workers, that made more sense, but feel free to talk me out of this next turn. I did not pop any dungeons. Sorry this isn't more detailed, but I didn't take notes elsewhere, as I thought I had posted this at the time. Nobody else got a free tech last turn, so we're still the score leaders.

Here are the demos:



If I forgot to mention something in this reconstruction of the turn, feel free to ask.

[Mardoc]

I think the likelihood of getting that many animal pens is probably unrealistic, but whatever we manage, upping the happy cap before going full on GoN makes a lot of sense to me. I don't see any reason not to try and get AV/Savants before going to FoL full time, and certainly that coast there plus that free Fishing makes the idea of grabbing a few Cultists appealing as well. Plus, long term, going Evil and/or Neutral for a little bit opens up the Undercouncil eventually, which is vastly superior to the crappy Overcouncil. Would love some cheap Gambling Houses and the ability to buy slaves.

Well, yes, 5 animals captured per city is quite optimistic. Still, even just the Grand Menagerie is worth +3 happiness/city (assuming we hadn't built Festivals), in addition to whatever excess animals we have (and after going Leaves, we're guaranteed at least another +1 from Tigers).

I also agree on Undercouncil; I think most of the benefit to Overcouncil is the diplo modifiers, which of course mean diddly-squat in an MP game.

All of this is well down the road. As both you and MBTM have alluded to, one of the major difficulties of FFH is how it makes you want to go down multiple paths, particularly given all the techs are expensive. I'd be very surprised if our early tech plan wasn't Farms/Cottages/Pastures -> God King -> FoL, but no plan survives contact with the enemy. In a bit of foreshadowing for my later post, my biggest fear is that I still think Sheaim are the civ most likely to be south of the jungle, from my experience with this map script, and Pyre Zombies are going to force us to make some tough decisions. Hopefully its like PBEMIII and we have the Elohim as a buffer, or I'm reading too much into the script and the zombies are on the other side of the map, but I'm not counting on it.

Of course, even something that 10 out of 12 puts you one place doesn't mean this isn't the time that the 2 out of 12 scenario occurs.

I will say, on this turn's scouting, wow, that's a lot of rich city sites! And mostly varied resources, too! I foresee yet another rapid expansion plan in a civ game . And I agree that getting out the worker ASAP is a worthy goal, especially when what we lose is Agriculture that we weren't going to use anyway.

[Gaspar]

I will say, on this turn's scouting, wow, that's a lot of rich city sites! And mostly varied resources, too! I foresee yet another rapid expansion plan in a civ game . And I agree that getting out the worker ASAP is a worthy goal, especially when what we lose is Agriculture that we weren't going to use anyway.

Yeah, pretty amazing that on T3 we have 5 quality city locations already, and 4 of them don't require cutting jungle. Now, to defend it all. (More foreshadowing.)

[Mardoc]

Yeah, pretty amazing that on T3 we have 5 quality city locations already, and 4 of them don't require cutting jungle. Now, to defend it all. (More foreshadowing.)

Dang it, you're making me post again just to find out your thoughts here. Even though I know that's what you're asking for, I can't quite resist.

It does occur to me that our forest speed might help against Zombies, in that even Warriors can be a square away and still hit them. For that matter, it probably pays to be cautious about building too many roads when the forest can speed us anyway, just in case the Grigori decide to go Raiding.