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Jkaen Wrote:That mean take an anvil as part of the initial kit? based on my first game I would say its possible to wait till the first caravan It is possible to wait quite long for it. I had forts that didn't start smithing until fifth year of existence. The question is - do we want to put it off. Also anvils are really expensive, if we take one with us we won't have a lot of points left for other stuff.
Jkaen Wrote:I would say farming and chicken/eggs, can cover fishing and hunting from people joining us later Important thing to consider is this - Fishing and Hunting start producing food immediately. Hunting is dangerous. Herding ( chickens, cats, cows etc ) requires huge initial investment or a long time to hit critical mass and become sustainable. Farming requires plenty of manpower and has at least three seasons delay before first harvest ( spring to dig up farms, summer to plant, harvest and processing in early autumn ). Knowing this forces our hand in how much food to bring, we can have minimal rations with fishing/hunting, but need big initial stockpile if farming or herding. We can't and should not attempt all of that at once. Also once we decide on one of above, we should stick with it for a while. Finally one more thing to consider is how the output scales with available dwarfpower - hunting is pretty erratic, fishing scales poorly, farming scales good and herding scales excellent. So tradeoffs, long-term planning and all that jazz.
Jkaen Wrote:Call yourself a dwarf! Booze obviously! Bought from caravans or self made? If self made then produced from day 0 or do we take enough stockpile to last a year or two? Drinking fresh water at start frees a lot of points to feed into initial industry and food production. Sure, we can play a 'proper dwarf' variant, but that's neither terribly newb friendly nor educational.
Jkaen Wrote:Do you mean what we get our cash from, or what we buy?
Is it not maybe easiest to make money from gemcutting? I mean what do we give caravans in exchange for stuff. Gem-cutting is not easy, raw materials are hard to obtain in significant quantity and would have to be initially brought with us and then imported. Also gems don't fetch high prices on their own. The easiest way to get cache of goods for barter is to set up a dedicated stonecrafter to churn up rock crafts 24/7. We should have plenty of rocks from digging, and he'll hit legendary status really fast producing hundreds of good quality trinkets to sell.
But again depending on what we do there are other options. An large scale fishing/hunting/herding operation will provide a lot of bones and shells making bonecarver an option. High quality lavish meals from dwarven syrup fetch insane prices. Glass- and clothes-making can bring good money and neither takes long to start ( if there's magma in case of glass ). And so on.
The easiest way to increase fortress value on the other hand is to train an engraver to legend by smoothing rock and then have him engrave every flat surface you have spare. Works miracles 
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Bear in mind I am not that far in to my 1st ever game, so I dont know long term effects of anything, but:
Mist Wrote:It is possible to wait quite long for it. I had forts that didn't start smithing until fifth year of existence. The question is - do we want to put it off. Also anvils are really expensive, if we take one with us we won't have a lot of points left for other stuff. I say take the gamble, if we are left without smithing for a while its not the end of the world
Mist Wrote:Important thing to consider is this - Fishing and Hunting start producing food immediately. Hunting is dangerous. Herding ( chickens, cats, cows etc ) requires huge initial investment or a long time to hit critical mass and become sustainable. Farming requires plenty of manpower and has at least three seasons delay before first harvest ( spring to dig up farms, summer to plant, harvest and processing in early autumn ). Knowing this forces our hand in how much food to bring, we can have minimal rations with fishing/hunting, but need big initial stockpile if farming or herding. We can't and should not attempt all of that at once. Also once we decide on one of above, we should stick with it for a while. Finally one more thing to consider is how the output scales with available dwarfpower - hunting is pretty erratic, fishing scales poorly, farming scales good and herding scales excellent. So tradeoffs, long-term planning and all that jazz. My thought is go with farm and herd, this does mean taking mroe food, but should be ok as we are saving money with no anvil
Mist Wrote:Bought from caravans or self made? If self made then produced from day 0 or do we take enough stockpile to last a year or two? Drinking fresh water at start frees a lot of points to feed into initial industry and food production. Sure, we can play a 'proper dwarf' variant, but that's neither terribly newb friendly nor educational. Self made, from plump helmets I believe. Hence I guess that means self made booze after 3 seasons
Mist Wrote:I mean what do we give caravans in exchange for stuff. Gem-cutting is not easy, raw materials are hard to obtain in significant quantity and would have to be initially brought with us and then imported. Also gems don't fetch high prices on their own. The easiest way to get cache of goods for barter is to set up a dedicated stonecrafter to churn up rock crafts 24/7. We should have plenty of rocks from digging, and he'll hit legendary status really fast producing hundreds of good quality trinkets to sell.
But again depending on what we do there are other options. An large scale fishing/hunting/herding operation will provide a lot of bones and shells making bonecarver an option. High quality lavish meals from dwarven syrup fetch insane prices. Glass- and clothes-making can bring good money and neither takes long to start ( if there's magma in case of glass ). And so on.
The easiest way to increase fortress value on the other hand is to train an engraver to legend by smoothing rock and then have him engrave every flat surface you have spare. Works miracles
Ok, only just geting to this point of the game, stonecrafting seems fine then.
So the dwarves I am thinking of are:
1. Leader/trader/minor miner
2. Miner
3. Farmer/Brewer/Cooker
4. Stonecrafter/Mason
5. Architect/Mechanic/Carpenter
6. Doctor
7. ?
Not really sure on all the above though
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Quote:So the dwarves I am thinking of are:
1. Leader/trader/minor miner
2. Miner
3. Farmer/Brewer/Cooker
4. Stonecrafter/Mason
5. Architect/Mechanic/Carpenter
6. Doctor
7. ?
Not really sure on all the above though
I'd go with following :
1. Leader/Appraiser/Manager/Record Keeper/Doctor
2. Carpenter/Woodcutter/Mason/Architect/Engraver/Mechanic/
3. Miner
4. Stonecrafter
5. Grower/Plant Gatherer
6. Grower/Plant Gatherer
7. Brewer/Cook
Miner and stonecrafter will be working 24/7 and can't be distracted. To grow sufficient food for eating and brewing we need two full-time skilled growers. One dwarf will have his hands full processing everything that gets harvested. That leaves two slots - one should be guy making barrels and bins that can construct something in his spare time, and other will be our estimable leader who will have to handle all the administration and dabble in medicine as required.
May 22nd, 2011, 02:05
(This post was last modified: May 22nd, 2011, 08:58 by Jkaen.)
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Ok, so I have got us to the following settings, ASM, Thoth, you happy with this?
As for order, I suggest alternating noob / experienced, so thinking the below order:
Players
Mist (experienced)
Jkaen (semi-noob)
ASM (experienced)
Thoth (semi-noob)
General Settings:
1 year per playset
1 playset per week
Population cap: 60
Child cap: 20
Invaders, Temperature, Liquid Depth, Weather, Cave-ins, Exotic animals: Yes
Economy, Aquifers: No (we would only search for a site without them anyway)
Graphics: I assume can be changed by each game player, but maybe its easier for lurkers etc if we stick to one? I am using Ironhand 0.57 atm
5x5 Embark square
World Settings
World size: Large
History: Short
Number of Civilizations : Low
Sites: Medium
Beasts: Low
Savagery: Low
Mineral occurance: Frequent
Dwarves
1. Leader/Appraiser/Manager/Record Keeper/Doctor
2. Carpenter/Woodcutter/Mason/Architect/Engraver/Mechanic/
3. Miner
4. Stonecrafter
5. Grower/Plant Gatherer
6. Grower/Plant Gatherer
7. Brewer/Cook
Gear
No anvil
1 x pick?
1 x battleaxe?
various seeds
bunch of chickens
male and female dog
male and female cat
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Dwarves:
1 Experienced Miner / Architect
1 Novice Miner / Mason
1 Wood Cutter / Axedwarf
1 Carpenter / Mechanic
1 Doctor / Stone Crafter(You can make a ton of money)
1 Farmer / Brewer / Cook
1 Expedition Leader / Book Keeper / Crafter
Pop cap 60, child cap 20 (Since kids do age we'll get 80, we can actually change these values if we want a king)
Economy is disabled by default because it was broken.
Medium World, 1 to the right for everything else except minerals. Maybe double tick it for Savagery to the right or else it is dull.
I play with Phoebos.
I want to play a volcano fort. I don't like digging down 100 z tiles or having to pistol/pump stack magma. Also, being in decently close proximity of goblins would be good. We can just trap spam the first siege before military is put together.
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
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1 Experienced Miner / Architect
1 Novice Miner / Mason
1 Wood Cutter / Axedwarf
1 Carpenter / Mechanic
1 Doctor / Stone Crafter(You can make a ton of money)
1 Farmer / Brewer / Cook
1 Expedition Leader / Book Keeper / Crafter
1. Leader/Appraiser/Manager/Record Keeper/Doctor
2. Carpenter/Woodcutter/Mason/Architect/Engraver/Mechanic/
3. Miner
4. Stonecrafter
5. Grower/Plant Gatherer
6. Grower/Plant Gatherer
7. Brewer/Cook
Ok the above are the 2 set ups from the people who seem to know the game the best, lets see if I can find the compramise.
1. Leader
Seems agreed he is bookeeper, appraiser etc, the difference is his hobby, Since I can see us wanting a full time stonecrafter, I say we go with Mists set up:
Leader/Appraiser/Manager/Record Keeper/Doctor
2. Miner
Question is do we throw in a point of architect, I would be tempted to keep him full time
Miner
3. Cash cow
Seems we are sold on having a stonecrafter, taking medic ontot he leader we have him working full time too
Stonecrafter
4. Farming
We have a big difference here, with 3 dwarves v 1, hence I would suggest going for a middle ground option
[COLOR="Green"]Farmer / Brewer
Farmer / Cook[/COLOR]
5. Woodsman
Again we have a split between 1/2 a dwarf, and 2 dwarves, so I would suggest the middle ground again
Carpenter / Woodcutter
6. Oddjobsman
That leaves me with a last dwarf to cover everthing else fromt he above
Novice Miner / Mason / Architect / Engraver / Mechanic /
Does that work as a good comprimise, or have I now got the worst of both worlds, best of none?
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This is actually not a matter of compromise, but a matter of how the food is going to be obtained and how dangerous is the neighbourhood supposed to be.
I wrote mine on the assumption we go very new friendly, we make our own food and booze, and the area is on the safe side with no goblin problems.
ASM seems to want to mainly buy food and drink of caravans, with multifunction dwarf in case we happen to get something in semi-raw state. He also wants a challenge fort close to goblins and therefore needs full time woodcutter, carpenter and mechanic to set early traps. That's also why two miners, trap complexes and moats need to be dug ASAP and in parallel to living quarters.
There's no real point in trying to marry the approaches. Both are viable, both result in completely different games. We either go with one, or the other.
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Well, the thing about DF is that there are no real victory conditions. You quit when you get bored. I think a starting fort non-difficult fort is good for this one (Simple Oobjective: Get 100 Dwarves and the King). I'll join on the first challenge fort.
Really, I think the more important part of any SG is to define a victory condition.
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
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Dang it, now I'm going to have to go pull this thing out again and give it another shot.
On average, everybody thinks they are above average.
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Ok, so I guess we do an intro one for now we me mist and thoth using the settings I posted before ASMs comments. Should help introduce everybody before we go for a more complex game.
Do we want to set a victory condition for it? (ie get a king?)
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