[Spoilers] Peace and Purity - Einion Logos of the Elohim

[WarriorKnight]

Thoth got Fanaticism. That's a strange move as I can't figure out why he would go for it as Paramanders are kinda lame. The only two reasons I can think of are either for Stygian Guards, meaning that he plans to switch back into OO (no Emp ), or for the Mercurian Gate. Summoning the Mercurians is interesting, but why then build the mines when the Mercurian palace gives Iron anyway? I guess he could also be planning to head for Malevolent Designs or Righteousness, but those two are really meant to be AV/Order techs. Or maybe the Altar, but I don't think he even has the first piece yet.

Really quiet on the diplo front. I'm assuming that's because everyone else is discussing the Undercouncil, but I'm a bit paranoid either way. We're definitely not going to be able to pull off a successful dogpile if this continue like this, but since I have a plan B that's probably better for me I doubt I'll do anything to try and fix it.

[Mist]

Only thing that makes sense is Malevolent Designs for Beasts and Mardero. I would not discount possibility of him going AV, he can clear anything interesting there well before Irgy can get it and with his crop yield Sacrifice the Weak + Slavery would be a pure murder.

[WarriorKnight]

Only thing that makes sense is Malevolent Designs for Beasts and Mardero. I would not discount possibility of him going AV, he can clear anything interesting there well before Irgy can get it and with his crop yield Sacrifice the Weak + Slavery would be a pure murder.

True. There's also Eidolons, which since he already has Iron only needs the tech, and can be upgraded from any Priest (I don't think even Mardoc could defeat Water Walking Tsunaming Eidolons easily) Ritualists would be great at inflicting land collateral and there's also Diseased Corpes and Infernal Grimiore and Demon's Altar (free Scourge promo for units, makes monks difficult to use)...

Hmmm, it's certainly interesting to take Order as a religion but it doesn't do much good in the long term. I suppose it'll give me minimal maintenance eventually but sacrifice the weak gives the bonus as soon as Infernal Pact is done.

Could he get Infernal Pact and build the Grimiore for Malevolent Designs in the 13 turns before nyktorion's NAP runs out? Probably not, but it shouldn't be too difficult to get it in the 23 turns before my NAP expires if he focused on it. Probably have to just wait and see on that one. In the meantime I better focus on which Tier IV units I'll want eventually, Beastmasters and Paladins will be my most likely options.

[WarriorKnight]

Interesting chat with nyktorion. He plans to build some Privateers to aid Irgy, despite having a NAP with Thoth. He hopes that the hidden nationality will make Thoth think that those Privateers belong to Irgy, but that's still questionable behavior during a NAP. I'm not sure if I can trust him to hold a NAP if we ever end up as enemies, which may be sooner then I hope, although it's good to hear that he is loyal to those allied with him.

The other thing is that the Undercouncil resolution failed to elect a leader, so they'll probably have to wait another 10 turns for another vote, then another 10 for the free sage. Since I'm not a part of it, any delay makes me happy.

Maybe things might be best for me if Irgy supports with ships, while I use my worldspell to hold the land front. That way, assuming I keep my units safely in my culture (disciples culture bombs will be very important), Thoth won't be able to attack me and therefore I should be able to hold the initiative. I doubt we could kill Thoth off completely, but I don't really want anyway that since Mardoc would end up with the majority of his land.

[WarriorKnight]

Been a while since there's been a pic on this thread:



My GNP is artificially boosted by being at 100% (where I can get just a bit over 400bpt, breakeven is 75ish%), but I actually went 0% this turn. Thoth switched to OO this turn, so the massive culture from that religion makes his GNP go ballistic. I assume his research actually went down since he lost the gold bonus from RoK state religion.

Otherwise a fairly solid 2nd. Might be higher if I realized earlier that the best way to solve my happiness problem is to spam Public Baths everywhere. Oh well. Thoth is going nuts building troops, but if he doesn't get a source of land collateral or a way to counter fear then we're probably going to do ok. Even if he does, well we're not out of it yet.

And I've sent a message off to everyone in the dogpile. It's silly how it took us several turns since Irgy met Mardoc for the first message to be sent to everyone.

Hi all

Since the four of us have full contact now, it seems that we should start discussing the attack on Thoth with the whole group instead of having 6 different conversations so that we're all on the same page. I'll start by sharing this:

I can report that Thoth has switched back to OO last turn, so since he also has Fanaticism we can expect to see some Iron Stygian Guards from him. He did manage to build a few Paramanders to go along with his Iron Chariots, plus he can now build Cultists again. (also remember since Thoth also has Optics along with Iron, he can build Frigates). nyktorion, Irgy and I will need to build some Caravels/Privateers for naval defense. Mardoc, since your in OO yourself you have more options, but since Thoth clearly wants to control the seas and you are his main competition, you'll need to prevent him for achieving that as much as you can (we will of course help you to the best of our ability, but we won't have anywhere near as much naval power as you or Thoth).

He did research Corruption of Spirit a few turns ago, so there's a possibility of him switching to AV. Since he doesn't have a source of land collateral yet (to my knowledge), I indeed expect him to switch into AV (or Empyrean) at some point.

Thoughts/Comments?

Regards,
WarriorKnight

[WarriorKnight]

Seems everyone really is just too quiet and I'm just too paranoid:

Hi,

something that might be of interest: the mines of Gal-Dur are located in Golden Igloo (formerly: Torrolerial), which happens to be Thoth's border city towards me. I don't know if I'll be able to take or raze it - it also contains the Bone Palace, which makes my collateral (fireballs, maelstroms) less effective - but if I can, that may help us in our efforts.

Anyway, even if Thoth's navy is considerably strengthened by iron Stygian guards and frigates, I think we must match it (privateers could still be somwhat suitable for that, having good odds when attacking a frigate or Stygian guard 2on1), otherwise our backlines will become very vulnerable. Of course, when Mardoc's own OO armies (and the black wind?) can join in, it will be a great relief on that front.

I'm a bit puzzled by Thoth's decision to research corruption of spirit, but adopt OO. Maybe he is planning to get out some cultists/stygian guards first, and then upgrade some to Eidolons after switching to AV, building the infernal grimoire, and taking malevolent designs with it? Irgy, if there is a way you can get the grimoire before Thoth, I'd of course be quite happy about it

best regards,
Nyktorion

Yes, I expect to construct the Black Wind in the near future, and
combine a navy with OO to take the sea for myself. Cultists on ships
ought to be able to take out anything he has, so long as I have the
initiative; a Tsunami will weaken just about anything to a point where
it can be killed without problem.
Because initiative is so important at sea, I would greatly appreciate
you sharing coastal Hawk flights with me when the time comes, so that
I can figure out how to hit him without him being able to retaliate.
Seafaring and Fair Winds ought to help with that, but ultimately
information is king. Unfortunately, I can't put a Hawk on a Hunter on
a ship due to game mechanics, so I'll need to rely on your
information.

I think I'm going to have to focus on just naval/coastal warfare, and
play defensively otherwise; I just don't have the production to match
Thoth in anything but one category. Still, with every city of mine
having an OO temple, and most of them having Sea Havens for bonus
naval production, I ought to be able to handle that category, at
least.

Is Golden Igloo coastal? I might be able to get a Cultist or two up
there to help. For that matter, do you have a good idea how much of
his civ is coastal vs. inland?

- Mardoc

Something to note, the Bone Palace only prevents (or help prevents) spells with a resist chance. So that just means spells like Rust, Charm Person, Blinding Light are less effective (anything that can be resisted basically). This doesn't apply to summons or maelstrom, so unless you plan to rely on several resistible spells than Golden Igloo won't be too different to take than any other city.

A Malevolent Designs grab would definitely be possible. The only good news is that since it takes 10 turns to switch between religions (does it apply to religions as well as civics?), it will be T150 at least before he can get in AV and will need to get Infernal Pact and build the Grimiore for the grab while fighting us off. Whether he can get it by T170 is questionable, but hopefully he would at least be too distracted by then to complete it.

I would be happy to help you with coastal hawk flights Mardoc. I can get naval visibility on everything east of Golden Cabin, but not much else. Golden Cabin is the only coastal city on the south that I can see (his inland HE city Golden Yurt is on a lake though, it's a bit far away from my front but a nearby cultist could make taking it easy).

BTW Irgy, I know your limited in time and requesting a replacement, but how likely is it that you'll have Death2 mages by T160? The 'fear factor' could be invaluable if Thoth neglects Spirit mana, and I'd like to know how likely it is that you'll have them by then.

Regards,
WarriorKnight

Anyway, the big news for T141 is that we got a Prophet. No more shrines to build so I guess we start on the Altar. Another pops on T157 if I continue to run 4 priests but I'm not sure if that's the right move yet.

Have to wait and see what Thoth switched his Adaptive into on T147. Despite Raiders being obvious he seems to be upgrading units which means that he might not take it. Maybe Charismatic? Or he could just stay in FIN, since he's teching like a beast right now anyway (he got math this turn, that takes me 3 turns at 100% but he got it in 1...)

[Selrahc]

Religions have a 5 turn rather than 10 turn lag between possible switches.

[WarriorKnight]

Religions have a 5 turn rather than 10 turn lag between possible switches.

Hmmm, that kinda sucks. Oh well.

T150 is coming up, but I'm not really sure what to report on between now and then. Corlindale is busy Vitalising, I'm researching on Animal Handling, the barb cty still hasn't grown to size 2 and Thoth is still leading.

The switch from Irgy to Heisenburg could've been bad because he may not have followed Irgy's previous plans, but it seems that he'll stick with the dogpile which is good. Got a NAP with him until T170, which should be long enough to decide which path I want to take.

And just because I can't think of anything else to post:

[WarriorKnight]

Alright, as Mist is covering for me and needs instructions, I'll do the overview now instead of T150. (lot's of cities though...):



Don't know why I'm not working the plains hill. Fire one of the Priests to work it, and put any additional population on Priests. Send the Confessor that gets built to build a temple in Spilan. After that just build Rangers.



Put any new pop on the cottage, then Priests. After the Public baths build adepts, since this is my only city with a Mage Guild.



Any new pop works mines. As for production, just continue to build Confessors. Send the first Confessor to build a temple in Cafes, and send the second to Ahepetr for now.



Build monks here, as I've got the first Altar piece here. That grass forest should really be a Priest (it grew EoT) but as a worker is improving it, it doesn't really matter.



After the Hunting Lodge, build rangers.



Finish the monk, then build a Hunting Lodge. I am building lot's of Hunting Lodges but that's because I can now build rangers and can soon build Devouts.



My border city with Thoth. Corlindale is nearby, I want him to Vitalise the 4 tiles surrounding Ballinasloe to grass so the Nomad bonus becomes less effective (make sure he's covered as I wouldn't want Thoth to give Thoth any ideas about killing him, even during an active NAP). Also the Spring/Enchanted Blade adept nearby should spring the desert to the NE. Smokehouse is just a filler build, ideally anything which produces a decent amount of culture would be better. If there's nothing else, build monks.



Make sure all these next few cities are growing. Not really sure what to build next here, maybe a Crusader?



Finish the Caravel and keep it in the city for now. After that build Privateers since I need a naval counter to Thoth's Cultists.



Growth mostly, don't know what to build after market, but I don't think you'll need to worry about it.



Barb city finally grew to size 2 last turn. Sadly I don't have any Acolyte's nearby to end the revolt, but it'll finish soon enough. Workers should focus on farming the only flat tile and mining the copper, after that roading to the mana node.


Anyway, after all that, here's the demogs:



My GNP is kinda innaccurate since I don't get the tech pre-req bonus. However it's actually the fairest comparison to Thoth's GNP since he's been 1 turning several techs for a while now (the most recent being Taxation). He will probably switch out of Financial in a few turns thanks to Adaptive but he'll still be 1st in everything. There's 2 hawks in Ballinasloe so you can see what units he has nearby.

As for tech, Animal Handling just finished. I intended to get Poisons next but it might be worth picking up archery for the chopping bonus before that since it's so cheap.

One thing I'm wondering about is Conquest civic. That would be a great civic for me right now (and I probably should've switched to that a couple of turns ago) but is it worth the turn of anarchy? I do want to get a source of exp somewhere and the AC isn't that high.

Still wondering about the whole 'forget the dogpile and go after the Sheaim instead' thing. Thoth doesn't have a source of land collateral (yet), but he'll probably switch to AV within the next few turns for Ritualists. Heisenburg just finished Priesthood so he'll definitely have Ritualists, but I can still use Sanctuary so I can probably still win (I can't use Sanctuary against Thoth without leaving any Sheaim units exposed). Not to mention that Thoth has about 4x the power of the Sheaim.

Anyway, feel free to look around and make comments. I'd be glad to get your opinion on everything.

[WarriorKnight]

So, Hyborem got summoned this turn.

It's still a bit earlier than I was expecting but his entrance was inevitable. Remember since I can tolerate his awesome palace I'm very interested in him if he's anywhere nearby.

Anyway, darrel sent me the turn and I'm greeted by this guy:



So he's at least somewhere nearby but where?



LOL, that's just perfect.

My current army is probably around 5 monks, and since I just finished taking out the barb city I still have some injured units. Sadly my eastern cities are probably screwed even if I could get my army there in time unless I burn Sanctuary.

Any advice Mist before I play the turn? Casting Sanctuary is a must if I want to avoid losing cities, which will be unfortunate but necessary. That'll give me plenty of time to prepare and wipe him out. Sadly I won't be able to control when to cast it anymore, but I guess that's just how things work. (Maybe I can get something out of Thoth so he doesn't have to deal with 15 turns of Sanctuary )

I'm starting to think that maybe I shouldn't have wanted Hyborem to start near me.