You speak in whispers of the devils I have slain, Brian, Sareln & Ichabod of Elohim

[Brian Shanahan]

I allways laughed at the idea of tribute in FFH. Sometimes you can go a whole game and no one researches currency. So no gold trading. Yet people still try and ask for tribute.

And I always laughed at being bullied, most people stopped when I was 13.

Yeah asking for tribute at this stage is a bit silly. The time to ask for it would have been when I first proposed a deal over the site, not now after trying to push me around a bit, and then getting a scare over the level of Kyan and his Balseraphs.

[Brian Shanahan]

Turn played, not much to say, didn't really show anything new.

Demograqphics show another power spike for Kyan:

Either he's getting really lucky with the dungeon pops, or he's managed to learn the game completely.

Actually it's probably the griffons, but above is more dramatic.

And someone is growing like a weed out there, must be really fertile land.

Edit: I'm sending the first message to Acalostas now, with the alteration of bringing in the time limit to turn 90.

[Brian Shanahan]

Ok the save was played last night around 2a.m. Now I'm in no mood for talking (one of the tenants at the house I'm living in is dicking the reast of us around re the bills), but there is one point of note re my playing. A skellington appeared north of my older warrior, on a forest hill beside Bradeline's, now the capital is not in danger, warrrior in two turns, other warrior 4 turns away, skellington 6 turns away (including the wait of a turm). But I moved the warrior NE onto a forrested grassland rather than the superior E on the forrested hill (he was standing 1N of the Corn, 1SE of Bradelines). So he is only getting a 25% bonus instead of 50%, should still survive but may die.

In diplo Acalostas responded to me today, trying to row back from his earlier position (probably due to my last message calling him out on his bullying):

[COLOR="SandyBrown"]Brian,

Okay, so apparently my diplo went drasticly wrong somewhere. I expect it has something to do with the combined roleplay + my earlier aggressive email due to me being in a bad mood. So i'm going to cut the crap and lay out to you exactly what i meant. I haven't t

The email where we declined your settling request was mostly made out of roleplay, and shouldn't be taken entirely seriously. Not to mention i was acting particuly like an arsehole because i had a bad day. so once again, i'm sorry for that.


Okay, my next email went:

-------------------------------------------
Dear Einion “Jack” Hackett

Mackoti has rescinded on his hard diplomatic stance and is willing to compromise.

Should you accept our terms, you will be allowed to settle one tile North West of the spot you inquired of.
Apparently, Mackoti wishes for 100 Gold in tribute (as soon as the means to collect becomes available) and a NAP until turn 120 in return. We are also prepared to open borders with your nation in the hope of future trade and peace.

We have just made contact with Kyan, and think it best not to show any weakness in front of a player with his reputation. So I hope that mutual trade will make us not seem like easy prey for insane clowns. It would be best to avoid conflict with each other, as we may weaken each other enough for Kyan to simply swoop in and destroy us both.

Be wary, any clown you see in the market place could be a Balseraph spy…
-Acalostas
---------------------------------------------

So step by step, I’ll go through this.

"Mackoti has rescinded on his hard diplomatic stance and is willing to compromise."

Mackoti had a change of heart, and decided that we could come to some form of deal to our mutual benefit.If this is why your upset, then blame Mackoti for being wishy-washy

"Should you accept our terms, you will be allowed to settle one tile North West of the spot you inquired of.
Apparently, Mackoti wishes for 100 Gold in tribute (as soon as the means to collect becomes available) and a NAP until turn 120 in return. We are also prepared to open borders with your nation in the hope of future trade and peace."

Now this paragraph is absolutely horrible wording on my part. Sometimes it sucks to not have someone to double check your wording for you. Mackoti did, but his English isn't the best. So the bad writing here is entirely my fault, so yes, I suck.


"Should you accept our terms, you will be allowed to settle one tile North West of the spot you inquired of"

The intention behind this sentence is quite different from how it reads, looking at it in hindsight. It should read something like;
We don’t feel comfortable having you this close, but if you take one tile North West of the original site, we would feel better. Of course if you want this spot, then we’ll need something in turn.

“Apparently, Mackoti wishes for 100 Gold in tribute (as soon as the means to collect becomes available) and a NAP until turn 120 in return. We are also prepared to open borders with your nation in the hope of future trade and peace.”

What we want in return for the site is 100 gold at an undisclosed later date. Probably considerably later on (at the triple digit turns at least) if you don’t have the gold at that time, we’ll just wait until you do. We want the NAP because we don’t want you to use your new city to launch an attack on us. We are also offering open borders if you wish, once we get the requisite technology.

Feel free to refuse any or all of the above. It just means you don't get the site. Feel free to negotiate, but any negotiations should be sent to Mackoti at Macedonciprian@yahoo.com as I’m barely playing at this point.


“We have just made contact with Kyan, and think it best not to show any weakness in front of a player with his reputation. So I hope that mutual trade will make us not seem like easy prey for insane clowns. It would be best to avoid conflict with each other, as we may weaken each other enough for Kyan to simply swoop in and destroy us both.”

This part is basically me saying, Kyan has a reputation as a good player, and that if you and I end up fighting, one of us will probably be destroyed. Then Kyan will probably just come in and destroy whoever won. So for the sake of not being attractive targets, let’s not fight.

“Be wary, any clown you see in the market place could be a Balseraph spy…”

This is just dumb role-play, you can safely ignore it.


If it’s something else I said, can I know what it is?

Or if Mackoti said something dumb in between then and now?


I can explain any other emails I sent, if you tell me which ones.

Oh, and the Elohim aren’t bully-immune, just bully-resistant , not that it’s related to anything.

So, uh… sorry for everything?

(note to self; increase diplomacy skill)

Oh, one last thing, we weren’t considering that you were negotiating from a position of weakness, we were just looking out for our own interests. Sorry.

-a slightly confused Acalostas

p.s: if I were laughing in your face, I’d probably go something like; Muhahahahahahahahahaha, hahaha!

…

That last one doesn’t count. Besides, it’s the Clown’s job to laugh in your face, not ours.

p.p.s: guh, i'm tired of this, i haven't written my turn updates past turn 4, have a pile of homework to do, and i spent two and a half hours writing this. I hope you take this email in the spirit which it's offered,which is; I fucked up, and I’m sorry.[/COLOR]

Ok that message can be broken down into three parts;
1) general apology for bad behaviour.
2) trying to put his last missive in a good light.
3) putting Kyan in a bad light, which would be justifiable if not for the fact that the two of us have come to an understanding (at least for now. Sorry Kyan, but I am trying to play for the win, all deals eventaully will be off, at the appointed time of course).
4) trying to play down my position, bad move, I know I've thirty turns of middle-finger up my sleeve, so I can afford to run light military, at least until raider horses.

I'm not too sure how to respond to this. It is a significant roll-back from earlier positions, but as Acalostas has admitted he's barely part of the team any more, and Mackoti is a very unbending and agressive person, so I'm guessing his position is "Macedonia says NO!"

I think I'll take the time to formulate a polite refusal, without comitting any plans to paper or revealing my position re Kyan. I'll send a quick note just stating that I need time to respond.

I'll also notify Kyan that I'm increasingly likely to be going for Grigori land in the near future.

[Ichabod]

Are you sure you want to refuse the proposal? 1NW of your planned city site is still a very nice site, with marble, incense and sheep on a PH city center. You can get the dragon bones with another city or wait for it to get in your third ring (since the tile won't be useful for the yeld, just for the ivory resource).

The grigori will probably be dead by the time you reach currency, if both you and Kyan go with the combined attack (Kyan has Animal Husbandry already), so the tribute they ask doesn't matter.

You'll be able to settle the spot as your 3rd/4th/5th city or whatever you like too, which is another boost.

And I'd like to ask you how do you plan to attack the Grigori? What kind of troops are you going to use? Don't forget that they'll have an adventurer in just a few turns and that'll probably mean a well promoted warrior later (just combat 3 + Shock 1 would be a major problem... imagine if he gets combat 4 + shock 2). Early war is difficult in FfH, so you got to plan things very carefully.

[Brian Shanahan]

Yeah that's the problem, how do I prosecute my war? At the moment I'm looking at bronze warrior spam, if I get the resource.

I have reason to believe though that the grigori capital is 2 off the coast (well it's a safeish assumption) so I was thinking something along the lines of Fishing>Sailing after my current tech path, planting one of my next two cities on the coast 1E of the cows, and spamming a few galleys.


Send my main body of warriors the long way around, and when they're near enough that mackoti responds by attacking out, then launching a suprise galley attack from the rear.

Alternatively I could run out as far as horsemen, and try for a more mobile avenue of attack.


As regards the last deal, they want a NAP to turn 120 (which Kyan has said they asked of him too) so to get Kyan's help that deal is out of the window.

[Ichabod]

Bronze warriors won't work. You'll need massive numbers to have a chance of doing any damage. Warriors are too spammable and too good on defense in FfH, so the Grigori will be able to raise their defenses very quickly. And while you are using your hammers for warriors and paying a high maintenance cost, other teams will be teching and building more cities.

Playing the elohim, I would go for a big farmers gambit after managing Orthus. Nobody will dare attacking you. After you have a tech lead, then you can attack the grigori. You'll need at least catapults and swordsmen, though.

FFH PBEM 2 Spoiler:

Just look at what happened to Mist and Serdoa (especially Mist). Very early rushes are bound to fail, even if you prepare for them since the start.

[Brian Shanahan]

Bronze warriors won't work. You'll need massive numbers to have a chance of doing any damage. Warriors are too spammable and too good on defense in FfH, so the Grigori will be able to raise their defenses very quickly. And while you are using your hammers for warriors and paying a high maintenance cost, other teams will be teching and building more cities.

Playing the elohim, I would go for a big farmers gambit after managing Orthus. Nobody will dare attacking you. After you have a tech lead, then you can attack the grigori. You'll need at least catapults and swordsmen, though.

FFH PBEM 2 Spoiler:

Just look at what happened to Mist and Serdoa (especially Mist). Very early rushes are bound to fail, even if you prepare for them since the start.

Plan has been averted, I was speaking to Kyan last night and he's willing to go for a 2v1 dogpile at turn 130 (given me solemn word). That would suit me as I'd be able to get at least one religion or a stronger early unit.

Chat with Kyan:

peterofindia: just downloading civ from steam. taking awhile
10:26 PM me: what did you have to, reformat the computer?
peterofindia: for a new laptop
*got. although for works too i guess hehe
old pc crashed all the damned time
10:27 PM me: ok, well wear on it then.
peterofindia: we can start for now
10:29 PM me: Ok then acalostas has rowed back a bit from the earlier bolshiness. But they are still looking to wrangle concessions and trying to turn me against you (I think they're genuinely afraid, not planning an attack).
peterofindia: hmm ok. How do you want to play it? I've been ignoring Mackoti a bit
10:30 PM me: But at the moment my best option is bronze warrior spam (if I have bronze that is). I'm looking at stuff like a naval suprise, but I think overwhelm is the best idea.
10:31 PM In response to your post, I think the war is still the best idea, turn 90 or 100 being the plan. As I said overwhelm is the best idea early game. Ichabod has just reminded me how hard an early war is.
peterofindia: well, something to consider
10:32 PM i would be willing to move in on grigori, in a FAR more meaningful way ~turn 130
10:33 PM me: Yeah I think I'll have to mock up a simulation and try to run some tests. It won't be this week due to me going up home for the long weekend and college interview
peterofindia: i.e. send my full forces in
yeah sure. i just wanted you to be aware. if you go 'early', i'll send at least what we agreed
probly a few more
but
if you delay, i'm willing to jump in with both feet
10:34 PM actually, hold that thought. back in 3mins. gotta restart the laptop
10:35 PM me: Turn 130 would be a better idea if you're fully comitted. It would allow me to go for a religion and maybe a hero. If you are going full on it would solve a problem for me as regards the offer (it's gold and a NAP to 120).
10:37 PM peterofindia: apologies about that
10:38 PM me: no problem, setting up a new rig takes time and reboots.
10:39 PM peterofindia: this should be it
dot have FfH on it yet but its baby steps
10:41 PM me: There is a certain horseman I've got my eyes on as regards heroes. If you are amenable to a turn 130 dogpile, then I'll be perfectly happy to accomodate you. I'd suggest a bit more time before we divvy up the spoils though, to see what we'll get. And we'll look like a right pair of dastards if we pull this off, it may be a 2 vs world soon after
10:42 PM peterofindia: haha
that wont happen
10:43 PM leave that one to me, we wont get dogpiled by the rest of the world
10:44 PM me: ah well it's something to think of. I'll postpone my attack for another 40 turns (t130) and go for the complete kill in conjunction with you.
peterofindia: if thats what you want mate, sure
we'd need a longer NAP so we dont turn our armies on one another if one takes most of the flak though
10:47 PM me: How long do you propose? Sorry for the delay, blanked out for a minute.
10:48 PM peterofindia: turn 145 or summat?
me: 15 turns after. Consider it signed.
10:49 PM peterofindia: cool
im happy with whatever date you want really, this is more for your benefit since most of my army, i intend for it to be disposable
10:51 PM me: same on this side. Well my army will be largely "If they die for the greater good, so be it" myself. On a somewhat related topic, would you be interested in turning the Balseraphs good through religion spreads. I'll be looking to get Order fairly sharpish.
10:52 PM peterofindia: probably not, to be honest
order isnt a religion i really plan to look at
10:54 PM me: Well I could still spread it to you anyways. I know what religion you wish by the way. But Gibbons Impersonate Leader doesnt work in MP.

Ok that breaks down as:
1) He's talking about his new computer.
2) We talk about my relations with the Grigrori.
3) I talk about my plan just to spam an early army.
4) Kyan mentions that if I can keep my bloodlust in check long enough, he'd be willing to dog-pile fully.
5) I jump at the offer.
6) Details haven't been worked out.
7) I mention my plan to get order. And he declines a conversion (he's going Esus, duh).

Turn will be up presently.

[Brian Shanahan]

First, the city will grow to 3 and the warrior come out next turn, second the corn has been farmed, third I found a gobbo fort in my north west, fourth the skelly is chicken.

I also did a rough dot-map:

Ye can change it around a bit if ye want.

Demographics are here:

Weather is too nice for thinking, but the numbers are kind of pushing me towards the dogpile, along with the earlier bad grace on the part of Acalostas/Mackoti. I also think I am going to be very caught for land and resources in this map, so an early elimination followed by a REX is very attractive.

Thoughts re Kyan
a) I know there is a reason why he is willing to go with me in the war, and it's not my stellar personality (though the fact we get on in chat is doubtless helpful). He will be stronger without Grigori in his side, and he gets a strong ally going forward.
b) He is initiating quite a few ideas regarding the partnership. At the moment they are all things that he will do for me, but I have to be careful wrt to him initiating actions on my part, to ensure that I don't end up doing something not in my interests down the line.
c) His openness and friendliness will get him a lot of help from me if he does come through on the attack plans as discussed. He offered me significant help without any prompting on both occasions, and, at least in this game, that is worth a hell of a lot of good will on my part.

So in conclusion, if everything goes to plan, this will be a partnership I'll be happy to contribute to, a strong alliance agains the world, but (being careful) not a master and vassal team.

[Brian Shanahan]

Of course all that leaves me with the dilemma of how to handle Mackoti. I'm thinking haggle for the spot, offer 50 gold and a NAP to turn 75, for the site 1NW of where I want.

I'm not sure how to phrase it but I'll do something up this evening when the sun goes down and send it off.

[Ravus Sol]

Dot map seems good, although most of the cities seem to get the good stuff after the border pop (especially the eastern city three) Do you intend to Monument spam or Spread a Religion?