[SPOILERS - PBEM19] Huayna Capac of Ottomans - yuris125 & Maestro

[yuris125]

T29

The tech selection screen shows that we can discover Pottery in 3 turns at 100%. So dropping research to 0% for this turn then getting Pottery in 3 turns is the optimal play. Did that. Switched the build in Ultra to Oracle. Nothing else happening, workers chop, Philipp roads copper, Till still goes for northern scouting (unless MNG's Warrior turns back next turn and starts to threaten us)

Demos



Unfortunately I have a feeling I screwed up with the chops, and we won't be able to finish the Oracle before T33 even discovering Pottery on T32... sorry about it

[yuris125]

T30

Workers work, Till explores, nothing exciting happens. MNG founded the third city; he also has Writing now (the diplomacy screen has Open Borders option). Which is understandable, we would've had it by now as well if we didn't go for the religion branch. And would've had the third city if we didn't go for the Oracle

[yuris125]

While we're sitting here worrying whether we will get the Oracle, let's discuss the tech path after Pottery. There quite a few techs I'd like to get sooner rather than later

* Fishing - Sailing. To work water tiles, particularly seafood, and build Lighthouses. Possibly TGLH as well, if we decide to go for it (although I'm still not sure we should, we're already falling behind in expansion, would another wonder be worth it?)
* Writing - Maths - Currency. Necessary economic techs, no question about it
* Masonry. For TGLH if we want it, and for Monotheism
* Polytheism - Monotheism - Monarchy. For a number of reasons: Organised Religion, Hereditary Rule, wineries
* Hunting. For elephants

Thoughts?

Also, we need to get some cottages up and running asap, we're not realling using our Fin trait atm. I still think we should found White dot fairly soon, as 4th or 5th city; we need decent commercial cities, and Ultra will be prioritising production for some time. This decision also has to be done fairly soon, location of our next cities will define how soon we need to go the Fishing - Sailing branch

[yuris125]

My thoughts:

1. Fishing. Not because we need water tiles, but because a scouting Workboat would be handy
2. Writing. Because we need to improve our research rate and produce Great Scientists
3. Maths - Currency. With toroidal map wrap, maintenance will start biting very hard very soon. We need to be able to build Wealth
4. Sailing. Easier trade routes. Could move earlier if we discover other civs with coastal cities and they sign open borders with us

Then decide if we want Monarchy immediately, or have time to go through the Monotheism line for a discount on Monarchy research

[Maestro]

What? You want a plan? I guess I'll entertain your craziness

To start, here's my preferred city order:

1. Blue dot - It's just too good. It will grow quickly and be able to support 2 riverside cottages and 2 scientists in no time.
   
2. Red dot - Really! If we actually get the colossus, red has tons of 4-commerce coastal tiles to work. Even though it's going to be our moai site, it has economic value before then.
   
3. Green dot - Grants extra happiness, also has lots of coast for immediate commerce potential, can cottage it's own river grass and could steal another river grass from ultra.
   
4. Orange dot - An odd city, with only 4 unshared land tiles. All riverside, though. The crab will be opened up by Maximum's second border pop, so we could have that improved and ready to go at settle time. Could cottage river grass + river plains, working those tiles plus coast.
   
5. White dot - A filler city, would need to steal tiles to get strong options early. Could steal up to 3 grassland river tiles for cottaging (2 from ultra, 1 from Maximum). No food means it would need to steal sheep or grow slowly. Eventually will be able to build wineries.
   

Strategic considerations:

1. Shrine - If we land Oracle, we can wait for the Great prophet to spawn in Ultra and use him for a shrine. I don't know how many turns we'd need to wait before the prophet spawned.
   
2. Academy - This is at odds with the shrine. Ideally we'd run a scientist or two at blue dot, but keep the GPP just behind ultra. Once the prophet popped, we'd go double scientist at blue. Academy is strongest at a high commerce city. Will we have an obvious Academy location?
   
3. Colossus - Assuming we get Oracle, Colossus is a lock. So much of a lock that we could consider double-building it for the +175% fail gold. Turning 1 hammer into 2.75 gold is quite strong this early. This would require another coastal city.
   
4. Marble - There is marble out East. Considering how marble speeds some of the best wonders (Mausoleum of Maussollos, Great Library, Taj Majal), we'll definitely want to include it in our expansion plans.
   
5. Happiness / Hereditary Rule - With ivory + Buddhism, we can get a modest early happiness bonus. Dejungling gems will also give another +2 after Iron working. Calendar opens sugar and dyes. +6 happiness (+7 with temple) should be plenty for us to delay monarchy if we want.
   

Teching order:

1. Writing - It's just so cheap for us, since we have all 3 prereqs. We can slam this out in no time
   
2. Fishing->Sailing - Lighthouse + Colossus makes coast 2/0/4. Allows us to get moai up sooner rather than later
   
3. Iron working - This is almost exclusively to remove jungle, most notably from gems.
   
4. Math->Currency->Code of Laws - We're on Prince, so I'm not as concerned about crippling Maintenance. I think we can wait to get Sailing + IW first, especially if we land 150 fail gold from colossus, but we can move these up the list if it looks necessary.
   
5. Calendar - Calendar opens plantation for us, which is good for bananas, sugar, dye
   
6. Monarchy (through poly and mono) - As mentioned, I think we have enough happiness to wait on this. It might even get cheaper as other teams pick it up.
   

The biggest downside I see here is waiting on Organized Religion, which is pretty good. However, we will have forges, which double the bonus of OR and apply to everything (not just buildings), so I felt like we could wait on it.

[Maestro]

However, we will have forges, which double the bonus of OR and apply to everything (not just buildings), so I felt like we could wait on it.

I apparently decided that forges are +50%, when they are most definitely +25%. I even correctly stated 25% in the fail-gold calculation. Regardless, the early forges do help us wait on OR, especially since OR is a high upkeep civic.

[yuris125]

1. Blue dot - It's just too good. It will grow quickly and be able to support 2 riverside cottages and 2 scientists in no time.
   
2. Red dot - Really! If we actually get the colossus, red has tons of 4-commerce coastal tiles to work. Even though it's going to be our moai site, it has economic value before then.
   
3. Green dot - Grants extra happiness, also has lots of coast for immediate commerce potential, can cottage it's own river grass and could steal another river grass from ultra.
   
4. Orange dot - An odd city, with only 4 unshared land tiles. All riverside, though. The crab will be opened up by Maximum's second border pop, so we could have that improved and ready to go at settle time. Could cottage river grass + river plains, working those tiles plus coast.
   
5. White dot - A filler city, would need to steal tiles to get strong options early. Could steal up to 3 grassland river tiles for cottaging (2 from ultra, 1 from Maximum). No food means it would need to steal sheep or grow slowly. Eventually will be able to build wineries.
   

I don't think we need Red that quickly. It will be a good city one we have Colossus - I don't expect Colossus earlier than in 15-20 turns, and that is only if we don't go for double-build. Remember, we can't build it at two places simultaneously, so it's quite an important question - will the failgold be enough to cover the delay?

I can agree to Green after Blue, but it will have to move 1W to pick up the fish, so it won't have its own cottageable grassland, only capital's land. And it doesn't grant extra happiness until we discover Hunting, which isn't in your tech plan

The main question is though - where does our commerce come from? I am worried about maintenance, it's quite high even at Prince with toroidal wrap. That's why I'm pushing for White; yes, it will have to steal the sheep, yes, it has little long-term potential; but short-term, it will be able to work two cottages for the capital, which don't overlap with the cottages Green will work. They will mature nicely by the time Ultra is ready to pick them up

Academy needs to be in Ultra, I think. It has a decent commercial potential long-term, especially with Bureaucracy

[yuris125]

T31-32

Nothing really interesting happens, all our citizens have crossed their fingers hoping for no "Oracle was BIADL" message next turn

We now can see MNG's graphs, unfortunately we can't redirect EPs, as we still don't know anyone else. Should send him a message, hopefully he won't consider it a hostile act, I really want friendly relationships with him, at least for now

Demos are weak, but should recover once the Oracle project is finished

[Maestro]

That's a good point regarding the arrival date of colossus. I'm happy delaying red in that light. I'd assumed green would steal wheat from ultra for a few population growths. We'll finalize the dotmap along the northern coast after we finish exploring it.

Forgetting to include hunting was... forgetful. We should sneak it in just before we settle green. I'd skip Sailing for it if we feel that we're too slow to get to economic techs.

Regarding commerce, blue and green will both be able to support riverside cottages immediately. The flood plain in Ultra should also get cottaged.

I'm not really interested in any concerted push for great lighthouse. I'd be on board with slow building it somewhere. If we get it, well hey, neat! But we'd primarily build it with the assumption that somebody else would beat us to it for the +50% industrious failgold. It may turn out that we're too busy with infrastructure to spare the building time, but it's worth thinking about.

[yuris125]

T33

Making updates for 2 games in one lunch break is difficult

The Oracle is ours!

Selected Writing for research, will take 5 turns. Maximum completed the Worker, onto an Axe, due in 3 turns, then we will let it work the flood plains, and the pigs once they're pastured, to grow

Nothing interesting discovered on the northern coast, dotmap thoughts after work