[SPOILERs] PBEM 19 Lurker Thread (No players!)

[Gaspar]

Players, you know the drill.

[Gaspar]

Mostly posting this for opinions on Ranamar's start. I left his Gems unjungled (I believe the only mining happy I left both unjungled and reasonably near the start position unless I missed something (Commodore has gold, but its far away from his cap and in a pretty lousy city location.) I did this because as they said earlier, the area around his cap is probably the bleakest and driest of all 5 competitors. His north however, is quite lush, but he's going to have to settle a couple of fair to weak cities to get to use it. Is the free mining happy a fair tradeoff here or is it too much? When the others get exploring, or if you look at the map thread, you'll see the other players definitely have more going for them close to home.

Just from listening to the opening turns, I'd rate GES and Ranamar as favorites in the game, good thing they'll be neighbors.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Don't care how much Krill bitches, but Mansa Musa is awesome and my traditional breakout leader whenever I wanted to migrate to a higher difficulty.

And looking at the micro plans of the players like Ranamar/Lewwyn, I can't help but feel a bit lacking myself

Edit: It looks like no one has a strong multi-food city site within 3-4 tiles of their capital that can be 1st ringed. So I don't think it would hurt him too badly. I think they'll discover their land blobs are protected by choke points quite quickly, so they can safely settle to 6-8 tile away sites.

Also, just noticed that the silvers in the centre of the wheel all cluster to west. That could be an issue, but only for much later (when your game is probably decided by your opening).

[Gaspar]

Its kind of funny how both Lewwyn and GES recognized what they had that the other didn't, but spent all the time railing against what the other had that they didn't. Nobody is ever happy.

[Gaspar]

FWIW, I finally got around to novicing the map here:

Player 0
Darius of Holy_roman
130 land tiles.
(61 grass, 34 plains, 19 deserts, 9 tundra, 7 snow. 33 forests, 11 jungles, 6 flood plains, 1 oasis. 32 hills.)
475 total food potential.
2.02 food per non-ocean tile.
171 total hammer potential.
0.73 hammers per non-ocean tile.
105 coastal tiles.
104 ocean tiles.

9 strategic resources (1 uranium, 1 oil, 1 copper, 1 horse, 1 coal, 1 aluminum, 1 iron, 1 ivory, 1 marble).
13 happy resources (2 whale, 2 sugar, 1 dye, 1 ivory, 4 fur, 2 silk, 1 gold).
27 food resources (5 clam, 2 whale, 7 fish, 2 sugar, 1 corn, 4 sheep, 2 wheat, 1 rice, 2 crab, 1 deer).
25 health resources (5 clam, 7 fish, 2 sugar, 1 corn, 4 sheep, 2 wheat, 1 rice, 2 crab, 1 deer).

Player 1
Hatshepsut of France
124 land tiles.
(73 grass, 34 plains, 11 deserts, 2 tundra, 4 snow. 31 forests, 12 jungles, 3 flood plains, 1 oasis. 31 hills.)
435 total food potential.
1.99 food per non-ocean tile.
183 total hammer potential.
0.84 hammers per non-ocean tile.
95 coastal tiles.
95 ocean tiles.

10 strategic resources (1 oil, 1 copper, 1 coal, 1 horse, 1 uranium, 1 aluminum, 1 iron, 1 stone, 2 ivory).
12 happy resources (2 whale, 1 silk, 2 spices, 1 wine, 1 dye, 2 ivory, 1 gold, 2 silver).
22 food resources (3 fish, 2 whale, 3 corn, 3 cow, 3 sheep, 2 pig, 4 crab, 1 deer, 1 clam).
23 health resources (3 fish, 3 corn, 3 cow, 3 sheep, 2 spices, 2 pig, 1 wine, 4 crab, 1 deer, 1 clam).

Player 2
Bismarck of Mali
114 land tiles.
(70 grass, 29 plains, 14 deserts, 0 tundra, 1 snow. 34 forests, 12 jungles, 2 flood plains, 0 oasis. 32 hills.)
420 total food potential.
2.14 food per non-ocean tile.
176 total hammer potential.
0.90 hammers per non-ocean tile.
82 coastal tiles.
122 ocean tiles.

8 strategic resources (1 oil, 1 copper, 1 coal, 1 horse, 1 stone, 1 aluminum, 1 uranium, 1 iron).
7 happy resources (1 incense, 2 gems, 1 spices, 1 sugar, 2 whale).
19 food resources (1 clam, 2 rice, 4 fish, 2 pig, 2 cow, 2 corn, 2 sheep, 1 sugar, 2 whale, 1 crab).
18 health resources (1 clam, 2 rice, 4 fish, 2 pig, 2 cow, 2 corn, 2 sheep, 1 spices, 1 sugar, 1 crab).

Player 3
Mansa_musa of Egypt
139 land tiles.
(70 grass, 35 plains, 11 deserts, 10 tundra, 13 snow. 42 forests, 15 jungles, 5 flood plains, 0 oasis. 34 hills.)
474 total food potential.
1.97 food per non-ocean tile.
192 total hammer potential.
0.80 hammers per non-ocean tile.
102 coastal tiles.
120 ocean tiles.

8 strategic resources (1 marble, 1 oil, 1 iron, 1 uranium, 1 horse, 1 coal, 1 aluminum, 1 copper).
7 happy resources (2 fur, 2 gems, 1 silk, 1 dye, 1 whale).
22 food resources (2 clam, 3 fish, 2 deer, 4 sheep, 5 crab, 3 corn, 1 pig, 1 whale, 1 cow).
21 health resources (2 clam, 3 fish, 2 deer, 4 sheep, 5 crab, 3 corn, 1 pig, 1 cow).

Player 4
Huayna_capac of Ottoman
140 land tiles.
(68 grass, 49 plains, 13 deserts, 5 tundra, 5 snow. 33 forests, 12 jungles, 2 flood plains, 0 oasis. 32 hills.)
426 total food potential.
1.85 food per non-ocean tile.
204 total hammer potential.
0.89 hammers per non-ocean tile.
90 coastal tiles.
75 ocean tiles.

10 strategic resources (1 copper, 1 coal, 1 oil, 1 aluminum, 2 ivory, 1 iron, 1 horse, 1 marble, 1 uranium).
11 happy resources (2 gems, 1 sugar, 2 wine, 1 dye, 1 fur, 2 ivory, 1 whale, 1 spices).
26 food resources (2 crab, 3 pig, 5 fish, 2 banana, 1 sugar, 1 sheep, 1 deer, 4 cow, 1 wheat, 3 clam, 2 rice, 1 whale).
28 health resources (2 crab, 3 pig, 5 fish, 2 banana, 1 sugar, 2 wine, 1 sheep, 1 deer, 4 cow, 1 wheat, 3 clam, 2 rice, 1 spices).

The numbers are a bit out of whack for yuris, who novice's tool, somewhat erroneously I think, has getting a larger share of the middle than the others. Nonetheless, I think the map qualifies as fair, if not balanced. If anything, I might have liked to shank a little of the far coast off of GES & Commodore and then stretch their mainlands a little closer together to remove the "safe border." I also sort of think if anyone, GES and Commodore have maybe very slightly the best starts. But I didn't hand draw a map, I rolled a wheel and tweaked for balance.

Anyway, I don't think anyone actually cares about this except me and the players of this game, but I'm happy enough at this point to feel like I didn't screw these guys, at the very least.

[Kuro]

As somebody reading the game, I care. =)

[Gaspar]

Also: HOW IS THERE NO ACTIVITY IN THE LURKER THREAD THIS GAME?

Well, 1. I don't want to talk to myself and 2. You've made everything about the map, as though the map is so horrendously imbalanced as to not give anyone hope to compete without the world's most masterful play. Clearly, I should have given Ranamar a bit more, but equally clearly, your land is not as bad as you say.

And honestly, as someone noted in diplomacy somewhere, this was originally intended to be a noobs game and Seven (one of the best players here) and Lewwyn (pretty good as well) are playing most of the turns for one of the teams. While I think MNG has played quite well, and while I think GES thinks he has played quite well, I will be very surprised if there is any outcome other than a Mali victory.

Honestly, if the map is a mistake to me in hindsight, its that it takes settling races off the board more than I intended, and that makes the early turns quite dull. Mostly I just thought we hadn't done Wheel before and its an MP script, why not try it. In retrospect, I have no business making maps.

[pling]

Well, 1. I don't want to talk to myself

Honestly, if the map is a mistake to me in hindsight, its that it takes settling races off the board more than I intended, and that makes the early turns quite dull.

That second bit is unfortunately true, and I reckon that's why you've mostly been talking to yourself here - it's reminded me a lot of PBEM11 where I ended up skimming a lot coz there wasn't much happening beyond people settling their own "bit" of the map. And discussing maybe going to war later, maybe But this game is beginning to pick up from a spectator point of view, with a few flashpoint settlements and a bit of diplomatic argy-bargy

and 2. You've made everything about the map, as though the map is so horrendously imbalanced as to not give anyone hope to compete without the world's most masterful play. Clearly, I should have given Ranamar a bit more, but equally clearly, your land is not as bad as you say.

I'm hardly qualified to talk about the map balance, so I shan't - you did run the map past the assembled multitudes tho, none of whom said "omg that's crap for Ranamar" or anything of the sort. But it's the way he's talking like you did on purpose that's setting my teeth on edge - I'm sure it's just the way he's talking and he doesn't really think you went and counted all the riverside tiles to make sure the Fin civs had more ...

And honestly, as someone noted in diplomacy somewhere, this was originally intended to be a noobs game and Seven (one of the best players here) and Lewwyn (pretty good as well) are playing most of the turns for one of the teams. While I think MNG has played quite well, and while I think GES thinks he has played quite well, I will be very surprised if there is any outcome other than a Mali victory.

Or will the diplomatic schizophrenia cause them more problems? It's not really coming across like the team is terribly cohesive, like with the recent city plant in yuris/Maestro's faces - but I'm not sure that's disadvantage enough to outweigh the rest.

[novice]

I'm lurking on and off. Had to smile at SS's team's complete schizophrenia. As always, Lewwyn vastly overestimates the benefits of early aggression.

And I agree that SS is probably in a different league from the other players.

[Kyan]

Well, 1. I don't want to talk to myself and 2. You've made everything about the map, as though the map is so horrendously imbalanced as to not give anyone hope to compete without the world's most masterful play. Clearly, I should have given Ranamar a bit more, but equally clearly, your land is not as bad as you say.

And honestly, as someone noted in diplomacy somewhere, this was originally intended to be a noobs game and Seven (one of the best players here) and Lewwyn (pretty good as well) are playing most of the turns for one of the teams. While I think MNG has played quite well, and while I think GES thinks he has played quite well, I will be very surprised if there is any outcome other than a Mali victory.

Honestly, if the map is a mistake to me in hindsight, its that it takes settling races off the board more than I intended, and that makes the early turns quite dull. Mostly I just thought we hadn't done Wheel before and its an MP script, why not try it. In retrospect, I have no business making maps.

This is why making a map is such an unforgiving process. There are, potentially *SO* many different things that could be missed when attempting to balance. The only way to ensure they are totally balanced is for identical land... in which case the players will complain that it's boring and predictable.

SS is even counting riverside tiles now. You had no chance Gaspar if they're being that picky. It's more stupid because, as pointed out, he's probably the best player in the game anyway so this just serves to help when evening it out.

Every single player moans about their start and gets jealous of that of their neighbours. I genuinely think that if you had given them each other's starts at the beginning of the game, they'd still moan. Don't let it get to you mate and hopefully you make more maps in the future.