RBPB4 Email and Technical Issues

[antisocialmunky]

Last turn this was actually a mistake, so I'm sorry about that. I was going out to a friend's place for the night, so I finished my turn early... or so I thought. I was sure I'd hit enter before logging out and rushing out the door, but apparently not. As a result the game got held up for ~4 hours or so, which is unheard of for me. Apologies about that, it usually doesn't happen.


For reasons which should be pretty obvious to everyone by now, I'm someone that would have reason to object to a reload for mistakes at this point. Not because I have anything against plako as a player. But because I'm pretty sure that if situations were reversed and I had (or have) a major misclick related issue, several folks would (or will) be gleefully telling me I have to deal with it and play on. I'm just saying we have to be even-handed here. While I can sympathize with the situation - I've certainly had quite a number of screw-ups in my time that have hurt a lot - I don't think it's fair to expect a reload for a mistake when, in all probability, the same courtesy would not be extended my way in a similar situation.

My 2 cents anyway.

I wouldn't have any objections against a reload for you if you screwed up and immediately posted it. But if you think that we are that way on this board, then you should take care not to make any mistakes.

Well if you're not at war anyway. I know here that reloading mistakes during war are generally frowned upon ala Whosit.

[Lord Parkin]

Gaspar pretty much summed up my feelings on the subject. A misclick at wartime would never be overturned. But here, plako is not at war with anybody.

He's very much about to be at war though. We all know it, let's not make pretend otherwise. And he knows very well that this misclick makes a difference of 20 Rifles to him. If I somehow misclicked and lost 20 Riflemen, let's not pretend that a bunch of people here wouldn't be celebrating joyously and saying "too bad, your loss". The fact that Gaspar didn't deny this and Plako didn't comment on it speaks volumes.

By the way, Gaspar - no offense, but your post doesn't entirely make sense to me.

I've certainly made no secret of my feelings in any situation in this game, but I'd take the exact same agnostic position if it were you making this request.

So you say you're antagonistic to plako asking for a reload, and that you'd have the "exact same antagonistic position" to me asking for a reload. Okay, fine. But then you say:

Regardless, I hadn't posted earlier because I truly don't care one way or the other.

So now you admit you don't in fact mind one way or the other in this case, but from your above statement you'd still be antagonistic to a request from me? If that's not what you're saying then please correct me, but it sounds that way to me - and that's the exact problem I was talking about. Situations like this have to be treated even-handedly, not depending on who's making the request. If you admit that you'd be antagonistic to me making a similar request, then you can't fairly give Plako a pass in this situation.

No matter what decision is made, I do think we can agree that this should never be allowed during wartime though.

Given that we all know "wartime" may very well equate to "most of the rest of the game" for some of us, the effective implication of this is that a reload here would be a one-off event not to be repeated (at least not by me). That's the kind of problem I was talking about.

Like I said, my problem isn't that Plako's asking for this. I have nothing against Plako as a player. My problem is that I think it's fairly obvious that if I was asking for something like this, several people would be antagonistic towards it just because it was me asking for it. And that's a double standard.

Not interested in getting into an argument, just stating my thoughts. I can't do anything about it if GES decides to grant a reload to Plako, but I do think there would be a lot more opposition if the request were coming from me. The reality of the situation is that this is not about technicalities of being at war or in a buildup to war. It's really a request for a misclick that lost 20 Rifles to be undone. Whether a request like that is granted should not depend on who's asking for it.

Can you honestly say that you would restore 20 Rifles to me under similar circumstances? I guess that's the main question I'd like everyone to think about. If so, fine. But if not, you can't have a double standard just because someone else is asking.

[plako]

I definately wouldn't be against reload if things were reversed. We've played together in the past and I thought you would know this.

It is not just 20 rifles. It is also 2T of anarchy, if I want to get back to theocracy and also convert to nationhood + quite a bit of other effects like losing promos and paying more unit maintenance.

There is quite a bit of a difference fighting a hot or cold war when considering a reload.

Could we pause the game while waiting for GES to make desicion? Locke also needs it since we've gone past 12h in the timer.

[Gaspar]

I'm not going to line-by-line reply to this, if I had my druthers we'd just call this game for you like everyone has known was going to be the resolution for the last 50 turns at least, but I know some others have other issues they'd like to resolve, so I'm soldiering on in the spirit of competition.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. What I do need to point out is that you misunderstood me. I said I was agnostic about the reload for plako.

Agnostic, by the dictionary, usually refers to one being unable to ascertain the existence of an "ultimate cause," most commonly referring to a creator. Colloquially, Agnosticism is usually meant to refer to a state of "don't know, don't care." Apathetic, I suppose, would have been a better word choice, though I think most caught my meaning.

Antagonistic refers to a hostile tone, much like the tone you use in all of your diplomatic correspondence, when you indicate how much better you understand things than everyone else.

Allow me to clarify my position on both this specific matter and the matter of misclicks:

I do not care either way whether or not we grant a reload to plako.
If next turn, you accidentally revolt to Despotism, and ask for a reload, I will also not care either way whether your request is granted.
My opposition to a reload for a misclick would only exist in a position where the opportunity for cheating would occur, for example, during war, where a reload could give you another shot at the RNG.

I apologize if my position was in any way obfuscated by my prior post, and I also apologize to everyone that I am somehow carrying the water on this matter, which does not concern me in any meaningful way.

[Lord Parkin]

Okay, so I misread "agnostic". Silly mistake, my bad. Thanks for clarifying.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

I don't presume to have a perfect answer on what to do here. I know the ruleset says this:

7) Fair Play: Teams should show good sportsmanship and act in good faith.

To me, the sporting thing is to allow the reload.

The ruleset is also completely silent on reloading for misclicks. I would never allow a misclick to be overturned during war. And really, for just about any other situation, I wouldn't be inclined to grant it. But given the magnitude of the error, and more importantly, the asinine interface that lets a pop-up auto-revolt you in way that cannot be overturned, I am going to let plako replay his turn.

I've had some of my fear assuaged on the Mackoti/Moogle war moves, so that is less of a concern to me now.

Please don't make me regret my generosity by requesting reloads on really mundane mistakes from this point forward.

Should the reload go back to plako's log-in?

[Nakor]

Thanks, GES, I think it's in the spirit of this community to allow a reload.

[plako]

GES: My login save is the one that should be used and thank you for a fast resolution.

[T-hawk]

I have another idea. I think I can fix the problem surgically with DLL code patching. Is this the list of what would need to be done? Set China's current anarchy length to 0 turns, civics change timer to 0 turns, and change the religion civic from Pacifism to whatever it was before. (Org Rel?)

sunrise, can you pass me along the current Pitboss host save to experiment with? Plako, can you PM me your civ password since I'll need that to test too?

Unfortunately I'm going to be out most of the day Sunday but should have some time Sunday night to hack on this.

[Adlain]

I would love to know where all this aggression has come from - Plako has mearly asked for a reload due to an easily make mistake. Fine if LP doesn't agree with it, for what looks like obvious reasons, but all this "if it was me i wouldn't be allowed" rubbish is plain stupid. I cannot speak for others but sofar in my experience almost everybody who play on this forum would consider each request like this on its merits rather than "i don't like Player X so i will automaticly refuse a reload request".

As for my stance, for what little it may count for, i have no problem with a reload. if Moogle and/ or Locke need to replay their turn there is no complaint from me as im pretty sure i know what's coming and i doubt a reload will affect the outcome