[SPOILERS - PBEM19] Huayna Capac of Ottomans - yuris125 & Maestro

[yuris125]

Did you choose Retro FM, a size 3 city with no infra, on purpose?

Libs get better as cities grow, and at this stage of the game, we won't want to keep them at size 4 for long. Add to this that Courthouses are more expensive, and IMO there's no discussion what to build

[Maestro]

Regard tech path... hmmm. I'm not sure. The religious path is interesting. I'm of the opinion that the Apostolic Palace in particular is really good. Extra hammers for religious buildings means they quickly pay for themselves. Landing AP improves Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore because we'll be building the religious buildings anyway for the extra hammers. On the flipside, I think awareness of the 'monk economy' is high right now because of Lord Parkin in PB4.

Do we think we have any chance at all at Liberalism? Getting it means Nationalism and drafting and the Taj Majal. That would be nice. Still, we're a little behind in tech at the moment. However, we do pop a Great Scientist next turn, so Bureau + Academy will give us a big tech bonus. Still, I feel like the map for us right now is a little food poor but production heavy. Maybe I'm delusional. If we do think we're a little food poor, then drafting is less powerful.

When do we think we'll stop expanding peacefully and want to start expanding through military? I still feel like that is "far away," as we still have 2 northern coast sites plus the middle to think about settling, and then we need to grow vertically for a while. Still, we can't ignore the possibility that others might be aggressive toward us, and longbows would make me feel a lot safer.


A tough decision indeed. All in all I think I'd like to try for Apostolic palace and then re-valuate.

[yuris125]

T82

Built a Galley in Maximum for the potential bluff against MNG. We urgently need to decide whether we get involved in Commodore's campaign, and if we do, what exactly is expected from us

Sent the Settler to the northern coast, but now I think it's a mistake. We should found the southern landbridge first, that location is at most risk. I would redirect the Settler next turn. A Settler in Best will take 6 turns, too long. I moved the Spear out of Retro FM to scout the planned location, and inserted an Axe in Best as a replacement

We should get Settlers out of Ultra and Maximum for the 2 filler cities, White dot and the northern spot. Or maybe delay the White dot, it's not that appealing now that Ultra can work all of its cottages; we would still need it to work wines, but Monarchy is still a few turns away

Not much else to do

[yuris125]

The religious path is interesting. I'm of the opinion that the Apostolic Palace in particular is really good. Extra hammers for religious buildings means they quickly pay for themselves. Landing AP improves Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore because we'll be building the religious buildings anyway for the extra hammers. On the flipside, I think awareness of the 'monk economy' is high right now because of Lord Parkin in PB4.

If we had stone, I would have liked this options a lot. Without stone, not so sure. We didn't start to spread the religion yet, and dumping a lot of hammers into expensive wonders would be quite a burden. Don't know how efficient this use of hammers is

Do we think we have any chance at all at Liberalism?

At the moment, I don't feel so. GES adopted Bureau earlier than us, and his GNP skyrocketed. Frankly, I don't think we will catch up with him any time soon, and I would be surprised if he isn't going for Liberalism

I feel like the map for us right now is a little food poor but production heavy.

To be honest, I don't think our continent is rich in either food or production. But I would still say we have more food than production. Ultra and Maximum are the only cities with decent production, while we have plenty of food in Best, Rock, and Echo of Moscow. In Ultra too, but I don't think it should be drafted

When do we think we'll stop expanding peacefully and want to start expanding through military? I still feel like that is "far away," as we still have 2 northern coast sites plus the middle to think about settling, and then we need to grow vertically for a while. Still, we can't ignore the possibility that others might be aggressive toward us, and longbows would make me feel a lot safer.

This is a good question. The more I think about it, the more I feel that going for war with Jannisaries would be a mistake. We won't maximise our cities and produce a decent military by the time we get Gunpowder. On the other hand, Jannisaries are not too far away, and they can be good defenders in the pre-Rifle era, with their bonuses against everything. So we might want to skip Feudalism and use Jannisaries for defence

A tough decision indeed. All in all I think I'd like to try for Apostolic palace and then re-valuate.

Ok, let's consider Theology our next tech after Monarchy, unless we see reasons to choose something else by that time

[Maestro]

Haha, no, I chose Retro FM because it's dead in the middle in terms of commerce. Excluding Ultra, which is a special case, there are 5 cities with more commerce and 4 with less. The commerce/maintenance chart looks like:

Ultra - 38 - 4.4
Nashe - 37 - 7.2
Rock - 32 - 8.24
Max - 22 - 4.38 (already courthoused)
Best - 19 - 7.2
Monte - 14 - 5.48
Retro - 13 - 6.8
Europa - 9 - 5.83
Echo - 9 - 6.8
Radio - 7 - 7.01
Dinamit - 6 - 8.55

I tried to be fair in my comparison, including Nashe even though it's the only location right now that profits more from a library. To me that is very telling. Nashe is one of our oldest cities, and most cottaged, and it is only now reaching the point where library is better than courthouse. Eventually, every city will have a courthouse, and most will have a library, too. So we're mostly debating about which should get built first. Thus I'm hesitant to pick one building over another because it'll be better after we've grown. I think we should decide based on short-term calculations, since most locations will go Granary, Forge, Lib, Courthouse, Lighthouse in some order.

All of this to me still points to Courthouses in the near term. What are your thoughts?

[Maestro]

Crossposting galore! :-) You make good point about food vs. production. I think my perspective was skewed by how awesome maximum is. We're picking up lots of extra food with platations now.

I really like the idea of trying to skip longbows as defenders altogether. Janissaries are pretty dang good for that. I checked and Vassalage would not save us any gold right now, as we're still at 0 military maintenance. I doubt that will change any time soon.

Sounds like Monarchy-Theology for the short term. I'm coolies with that plan.

[yuris125]

Well, Vassalage is out of the equation anyway, because it's in the same column as Bureaucracy

You might be right about Courthouses; I normally don't build them in every city, but I normally don't play toroidal maps However, I still think Libs should be built before Courthouses, because they're cheaper, so we can get their bonuses faster, and because they provide border pops

[yuris125]

To another matter at hand. I've been thinking about the upcoming civic switch, and I don't think we should switch to Caste System. We won't whip the core any more, but we still have a few cities to found, and Slavery will be extremely helpful in getting them up and running. Also, I don't think there currently are cities where we will be able to use extra specialists well

I would consider switching to Caste System and Pacifism when we get to Guilds. This will greatly speed up great people production at the point when it will be important. Also, Guilds + Caste System is a good combo to start using workshops and improve our production. Guilds are a long way away however, especially if we go for religion wonders

I think we need to decide whether we want to go to Gunpowder via Education or via Guilds. I favour the Education route, not because it gives us a long shot at Liberalism, but because Unis and Oxford will be very helpful. Also, Theology is a pre-req for Paper, so it isn't too much of a deviation from this path. And of course, Paper also gives us a chance to try and get UoS

[Maestro]

Had a chat with Commodore:

Commodore: Sigh
Commodore: He offered me a chariot, Maestro.
Maestro: sup?
Commodore: MNG is totally going to get pasted.
Maestro: heh heh
Maestro: Was MNG the chariot offerer?
Commodore: Yeah
Commodore:
Maestro: In return for... a NAP?
Commodore: "I'm helping my daughters make cookies, but I have a minute"
Commodore: Nope.
Commodore: Just as an appreciation for me being the only one still with OB with him
Maestro: poor guy
Commodore: A man cheerfully makes sugary baked goods with his family while I plot to wreck his game.
Commodore: :P
Commodore: Ah well.
Maestro: Yuri noted in our spoiler thread "Looks like his 'I don't want NAPs, I want to keep my options open' approach backfired badly"
Commodore: In other news, it's your eastward neighbor that is making the truely scary numbers.
Maestro: yeah
Maestro: we're locked into a medium length NAP with him
Maestro: as part of the negotiation for that city site
Commodore: Yeah, the whole "no NAPs" thing is fine...if you, y'know, actually talk to your neighbor before settling in his front yard.
Commodore: Medium meaning 'till?
Commodore: Yuri thought either T100 or 111
Commodore: Those aren't game-breaking.
Commodore: It's those 50+ turn NAPs that truly let the runaways run away.
Maestro: "After the war, we will sign a new NAP for at least 40 turns "
Commodore: So 111 or 112
Maestro: so a 40-turn minimum, from peace, which was declared on turn 72. Should include 72 and thus run up to 111, inclusive
Commodore: Ah, cool
Commodore: I'm actually kinda weirded out by GES and RL7 avoiding conflict.
Maestro: I'd like to see them kill each other
Commodore: No kidding
Maestro: I thought you'd mentioned something about tension between them
Maestro: Am I remembering that correctly?
Commodore: Tension, but no preparations for war it seems.
Commodore: Mostly just complaining about each-other, actually.
Commodore: Oh! Who was it that got Taoism, by the way?
Maestro: No idea. "In a distant land" from our perspective. I figure RL7
Commodore: Makes sense
Maestro: maybe MNG, but RL7 did just pop out of a golden age, and MNG adopted Buddhism already
Commodore: Yeah, MNG just got the free spreads apparently.
Commodore: Need to get my own shrine up.
Maestro: heh heh, mor than we did, it would seem! :-p
Commodore: Bleh. I have had 1 free spread all game.
Commodore: It was actually just a wait until I saw which spread to my capital, Judaism or Hindu
Commodore: Your holy city is actually pushing back those creative MNG borders I notice, good on yer.
Maestro: yeah, I was happy about that
Maestro: I halfway want to go settle in the new ring. it's not a very good site, so we won't, but part of me still kinda likes the idea
Commodore: Yeah.
Commodore: Settle your hub rice first mate, you need those furs.
Commodore: Markets are very high-happy in this game.
Maestro: Yeah. There are many better places to pursue than that doofy landbridge blocker. I just like to have my cake and eat it too
Commodore: Yeah
Commodore: I think GES is having a hard time profiting from our landbridge.
Maestro: did he settle it? Our souther hemisphere scouting is still kinda sad.
Maestro: lots another scouting warrior, this time at 97% odds :-(
Commodore: Bleh
Commodore: Just enough to mess you up.
Maestro: yeah
Maestro: I'm hoping maybe we're getting bad RNG luck out now, so maybe we'll have some good luck when we eventually fight somebody.
Commodore: He, like MNG, caught me with my pants down.
Commodore: Thus why he took my site when my soldier count was half the next lowest.
Maestro: yeah
Commodore: He actually was getting nervous when I doubled him last turn.
Commodore: I have a NAP with him 'till 100, I don't break my word.
Maestro: What does MNG think? Can he really have not asked you about your rising power?
Commodore: I think he thinks GES is about to get reamed.
Commodore: But landbridge site 15 tiles from my capital =/= furs 10 tiles from my capital
Commodore: I'm glad he never asked directly, I'd have had to tell him the truth.
Maestro: yeah, diplomacy is hard. Nobody wants to be a douche
Commodore: Ah, lest you worry: No current plans whatsoever to attack Radioland.
Maestro: heh heh, and none from us to attack you!
Maestro: Also, apparently I missed a chat with you and Yuri
Commodore: Yeah, mostly, I was trying to get a feel for what you two wanted from the war.
Maestro: I think Yuri and I haven't even reached an agreement about that :-)
Commodore: Objectives are good.
Maestro: In complete honesty, I'd rather not do anything right now. We still have places to settle, and, bluntly, if you attack, then MNG dislikes you, not us.
Commodore: Commodorian Koan up there.
Commodore: That makes sense, you guys are far less squished.
Maestro: That said, you'v been the easiest to work with so far, and I like that. We want to be helpful, to keep relations strong.
Commodore: Plus, well, in a game of "dogpile the leader" neither of us is "it".
Maestro: Indeed. I'm actually happy about that. Being dogpiled would be no fun.
Commodore: How many hammers is a trireme?
Maestro: great question
Maestro: 50 normal = 33 quick
Commodore: Ah, okay.
Commodore: Hrm. Might be willing to buy one of them from you, maybe both of them, for 40 gold per.
Maestro: The costs, to me are:
1) Diplomatic fallout with MNG
2) Opportunity cost of hammers going into war instead of infrastructure.
The gains are less clear.
1) Continued diplomatic benefits with you
2) Maybe a city from MNG? But probably not.
Maestro: I'd be very happy to build things for you
Commodore: I'm not completely sure this is destined to be total war.
Maestro: sure
Commodore: If I get the hub and he's willing to sign a white peace, I'll let it be.,
Maestro: And I hope I'm not coming off as insensitive. Just trying to be direct
Commodore: Oh, not at all.
Commodore: I like you dude, but you're playing to win just like I am.
Commodore: That's respectable.
Maestro: heh heh
Maestro: Off hand, I'd say that I'm willing to trade hammers to you at a 1-to-1 rate for gold. That's technically a slight loss for us, since wealth building includes forge bonuses for us most anywhere, but a small discount seems like the least we could do
Commodore: That seems more than fair.
Commodore: If it does start to look like total war, I think I'll be hiring Radiolander mercs.
Maestro: That seems like a good option
Commodore: Relations are still at +2 for helpfulness.
Maestro: heh heh
Maestro: That made me chcukle, both now and a long time ago, when you mentioned GES being at -3 for religion
Commodore: Also, I'll be grabbing extra furs with my artist. You have anything to trade for 'em?
Maestro: Ahhh, not yet, but very soon. I think 100% of our plantation resources were jungled (not an exaggeration). I'd have to check to see what we have extra of.
Commodore: Yeah, I'm hacking away at my sugar now.
Maestro: We've just started chopping all that out
Maestro: "with my artist" are you the sneaky Great Artist recipient? We assumed RL7
Maestro: especially since they just popped a GA
Commodore: Oh, I told Yuri, sorry.
Commodore: Yeah, that was me, not sure which GP they used.
Maestro: He probably mentioned it and I didn't read it.
Maestro: Good for you!
Commodore: I needed to build culture on my colony sites too.
Maestro: heh heh
Maestro: If you're not committed to his location, remember that you could use him to slam out favorable borders on your deepest captured city from MNG
Maestro: I'm sure you thought of that already, but hey. There it is just inc ase :-)
Commodore: Yeah
Commodore: Total war seems like a lose-lose to me.
Maestro: yeah
Commodore: Either I grind my economy in a standstill and fall behind...
Commodore: Or I capture all MNG's land and I'm the big bad to dogpile, but massively out of position to use my forces.
Maestro: yeah
Commodore: Which is honestly another reason I'd prefer to share gains if MNG starts to crumble.
Maestro: I fully understand that. I cite as evidence our negotiations with RL7 to raze the city. We likely could have taken it, and maybe more, but chose instead to negotiate peacefully.
Maestro: Yeah, splitting the land makes a ton of sense
Maestro: Hopefully there will be a point when it's profitable for both of us
Commodore: Yep
Commodore: Oh, by the way, I hate creative.
Commodore: :P
Maestro: Heh heh. It's my favorite trait in SP
Commodore: His Moai city's culture means he can hit me northwards across the ocean.
Maestro: lame
Commodore: Yep, thus why I'd be very keen on buying triremes when I can.
Maestro: sounds good
Maestro: I think I have to bail for now. The girlfriend wants to play some LoL, and, well, can't say no to that :-)
Commodore: Awesome.
Maestro: Good chat as always
Commodore: Have a good night man.
Maestro: Yup, good night to you as well. Stay classy

tl;dr version:

• Commodore got the Great Artist for Music.
  
• I mentioned my desire to stay out of direct conflict with MNG for now. I offered to sell him units at cost (1-to-1 hammers to gold). I said that that was a slight loss for us, but worth it for the diplomatic boost. I truly thought that when I said it, but as I write this summary I realize that it's a breakeven trade for us. The forge bonus applies to both wealth or the unit, so it's a wash from our perspective. Regardless, I'm still inclined to be helpful toward him.
  
• Commodore does not want total war, just a quick strike to get back some land.
  
• RL7 is generating more fear. We'll need to decide if we're going to work with them or just play the "we had to NAP to get our site back" game. At the moment I'm inclined to ally with them and expand into MNG by leveraging our relationship with Commodore, but there's still lots of time to change my tune. They did settle in our back yard, after all.
  

[Maestro]

Oh, and I"m on board with delaying Caste System for now, and teching gunpowder through education. Paper will get a discount for having both prereqs, and Sankore could be good for us. So far it seems that our land is as good or better than anybody else's, so I'm inclined to tech infrastructure and play for the later game.