Uncommonly Good: A Story of Elves

[NobleHelium]

Last comment - you could alternatively settle the gold city one tile south and then fit another city north of it. Lots of overlap obviously, but if you plant say north of the cotton you grab the two missing land tiles. Or you can do NE of the cotton to be on the coast.

[Man Behind the Mask]

I’m definitely in the wrong timezone for this team

Gaspar’s Turn Comments First

So, I think Calendar next is unanimous, followed by Way of the Forests. After that, its really a debate between Crafting/Mining/Bronze Working, Festivals and/or Philosophy/Priesthood. Obviously, it goes without saying that some combination of all that is going to be the next run of techs, its really just a matter of the order.

Priesthood, with time to build a large number of Priests is looking increasingly challenging by T100 unless our commerce starts ramping up soon. One thing you’ve not mentioned here is Archery, which is actually the same price as the useless Philosophy (less if we get double pre-req discount by taking Mining first). Still lots of time to decide and we’ll have a better idea of where our economy stands as WotF completes.

I can still be talked out of this, but right now my thought for the Capital is Finish Settler -> Warrior -> Worker -> Settler, while Hash Pipe goes Hunting Lodge -> Hunter -> Hawk and City 3 spams 3 warriors before doing anything else.

Again, I’m sure we can have more discussion here. In particular, I feel like the utliity from a Hawk whizzing around our current locations while the Hunter builds would make it better to go that way around at Hash Pipe. I’m also not convinced by Azoth’s suggestion of warriors in the capital, since it will be happy capped again soon and that means avoiding working some good tiles for warriors with no growth. Elder Council in City 3 would be handy, though….

Quick C&D Report, and I unfortunately agree that the demos are taking a turn for the worse. I checked the T62 save, and my deductions about what actually happened were right. This turn, we can easily confirm in game, but I think the Hippus settled a new site and the Sheaim capital of New York hit size 7.

Happiness Is…

Great stuff, Mardoc. It is this kind of collected information that is difficult to find for FFH, so it’s really good to bring it together for reference.

One thing that you’ve left out is gambling houses, which provide a happy face for every notch up the tax slider.

The civics are probably the most interesting thing, as this is the area where we can leverage Spiritual to have an advantage over our competitors. Once we get cities near a cap in one situation, we’re going to have to be careful we don’t break it with any flips. I do still wish we had some incense

Barb Hunting

I’m really interested to see what is inside the city. I’d actually be a little surprised if there are any archers, and even more surprised if it’s more than one. In one of the other games, a city was defended by a warrior as late as T130. However, barb archers would put a serious dent in any capture plans. We’d need to time any assault so that we go in just after the usual 4-warrior attack squad has been despatched.

Dotmapping

Like Gaspar, I’ve gone from “surely 1NE of the Pigs” to agreement with his proposed arrangement. I feel we’ll be settling his red on the coast last of the selection (which means we might even have sailing). If we feel strongly about wasting tiles, and a few of the forests have turned ancient by then for food, then it can go one south – that swaps the corn and coast for some overlap and the missing tiles.

If my understanding of FFH forts is right, then the unused grassland tile actually makes an excellent site for a future citadel. The three tile range would cover four cities for a 15% defensive bonus, and cost us nothing as otherwise it would be wasted. We need the tech and worker turns, of course.

[Man Behind the Mask]

We're actually now last in score, even after getting a tech this turn. Rawkking planted city 4. He's the clear second place civ right now. I'd say at the moment it goes Kyan >>>> Rawkking >> Grigori >> Us >> Elohim >> Sheaim in actual rank, regardless of what the scoreboard tells us. Be nice if someday we can actually meet our far western neighbours to confirm that though.

This sounds like a request for details. It’s been a while since we did the full tour.



The only outstanding puzzle in the C&D picture is a funny score increase for the Grigori, which I’m reasonably confident was completion of Dereptus. So, making the grand assumption I’m right , let’s see about ranking the other civilizations in a few categories to get the picture behind the score.

Number of Cities:
Balseraphs – 5
Hippus – 4
Grigori – 2
Ljosalfar – 2
Sheaim – 2
Elohim – 2

Total Population:
Balseraphs – 21
Grigori – 15
Hippus – 13
Ljosalfar – 9
Sheaim – 9
Elohim – 8

Total Number of Techs Researched:
Balseraphs – 9 (one classical)
Hippus – 9 (one classical)
Elohim – 8
Sheaim – 7 (one classical)
Ljosalfar – 7
Grigori – 7

Wonders:
Grigori – 1 (Dereptus Brewery)


It looks like Gaspar’s rankings are about right, although I’d maybe put the Sheaim ahead of the Elohim. We believe Nicolae has already got his uber-unit in play, and the tech to solve the jungle problem which has slowed down his start. The lucky Academy is also an important factor. At the other end, it is VERY obvious who is in the lead.

The Grigori have gone for vertical growth, their second city is bigger than the Elohim and Hippus capitals. Maybe they got all the happy resources? However, their overall research rate is quite slow (probably two hut techs inflating their count). It’s been a while since their last tech researched, so I’d expect they will shortly convert to Aristocracy. They’ve also got their first two Adventurers in hand, who are a pretty decisive military force on their own.

The Elohim are the biggest mystery, especially considering Ichabod seems to have been playing quite a few turns. I think they settled coastal, are stuck with two size 4 cities, and seem to be lagging in GNP despite building an Academy with an early Sage. I even have a feeling they’ve got the smallest military, so I really don’t know what they’ve been up to. Maybe the barbs are rushing them? They do have Sareln in the thread title

Our position is difficult to judge, because we’ve gone after the very expensive Hunting, which is still an Ancient Tech despite being 40% more expensive than Code of Laws. If we are the first to a religion, then we’ll have a significant advantage in a number of areas. Our cottage economy is only just beginning to have a chance of overtaking the commerce output of the Hippus and Balz farms. Similarly, once we hit mining, our production will be able to skyrocket if we go hammer-heavy, as the forests will give every mined tile extra output.


You could always ask Kyan if you’re curious about the world we have not met. He can see graphs etc for everybody. I’d also be interested to know if he’s found our neighbours more forthcoming in their diplomacy. Maybe people just don’t have much to say?

[Mardoc]

I like Gaspar's latest dotmap. That location for the sheep city makes a lot more sense than my spot for it. I, um, my dotmapping may have been warped by playing the Lanun so long.

happy cap 15...

Actually...if we capture some spiders and are willing to put them to work, make that 16 for spider silk. Ok, yes, if we're willing to aggressively pursue happiness from all over the tree, then Guardian of Nature isn't worth doing. Size 16 cities everywhere are good enough to carry us through to endgame.

It will come as no surprise that this builder-at-heart prefers to go Festivals first. We should wait for Hawk reports, of course, but even if we see Nicolae or the Hippus initiating a military buildup, it might be better to go Festivals first. Festivals is a cheap tech; I think it costs less than Philosophy, not to mention Priesthood. I wouldn't be surprised if a few half-price Carnivals (+1 cottage worked) and Markets nudge our tech rate such that we reach Priesthood at the same time, Festivals or no.

Really, in my mind, the trouble with Festivals is that it requires a significant hammer investment to make use of. So, it'll depend on how we're doing hammer-wise at the time we make the decision, in my mind - we still will want to put up Temples of Leaves everywhere, grow, build some military, build a bunch of settlers...does that really leave room for 40 carnival and 40 market hammers in every city?

I do take your point about adding a bunch of markets and cottages likely boosting our econ enough to catch up; if we do go this route, we should definitely put up the carnivals first; I think a typical cottaged forest is worth considerably more than 2 gold, and that discounts any possible animal friends.

I’m definitely in the wrong timezone for this team

Nah, you just ensure the discussion continues 24 hours a day . Seriously - it'll be a week before we plant our next city; PBEM lets us discuss ad nauseum before we make any irrevocable decisions. Timezone will only maybe matter when it comes to war.

Priesthood, with time to build a large number of Priests is looking increasingly challenging by T100 unless our commerce starts ramping up soon. ... Elder Council in City 3 would be handy, though….

As commerce/research is still our main bottleneck, I think I come down on the side of an early Elder Council here too. Our cottage economy is just getting off the ground, and will continue to upgrade itself with no additional effort required, but that doesn't mean we can neglect boosting it further.

One thing that you’ve left out is gambling houses, which provide a happy face for every notch up the tax slider.

I'll go back and fix that. I knew I was missing something, but yes, I wanted all our info in one spot, so that if Gaspar ever gets to making that table of contents post, we can use it for reference later.

I do still wish we had some incense

Which...is another proposal of mine. I'm not convinced this is worth doing, but I'll throw it out for discussion anyway - what do we think about having city3 build a workboat or two to go find the Elohim and Grigori? Despite griffons and sea serpents, the oceanic routes are generally much safer than land. And with lizardmen running around, I wouldn't be surprised if Griffons have been hunted out by now.

What would it gain us? Known tech bonuses. Potential trading partners, and trading partners with access to the desert (incense!). Trading partners with everything to gain and nothing to lose, since if they're warring with us we must be in endgame. Although...we don't currently have anything to offer .

What would it cost? Well, production is still in short supply. 2 tiles/turn is still not a very quick scout, and workboats are fragile, so there's be no guarantee. If we run into borders of the Hippus or Clowns, we're stuck.

What else - well, it's possible that Hunters + Hawks will be able to find them for us anyway.

I’m really interested to see what is inside the city. I’d actually be a little surprised if there are any archers, and even more surprised if it’s more than one. In one of the other games, a city was defended by a warrior as late as T130. However, barb archers would put a serious dent in any capture plans. We’d need to time any assault so that we go in just after the usual 4-warrior attack squad has been despatched.

Information rules all, yes. Let's aim to remain flexible; if it's at any point defended by *a* warrior, then we can pick up our city on the cheap. If it's more like Azoth's expected garrison, then we'll probably need to wait for Priests of Leaves, which we'll be building anyway for defensive purposes, Tiger Cages, and Bloom

If my understanding of FFH forts is right, then the unused grassland tile actually makes an excellent site for a future citadel. The three tile range would cover four cities for a 15% defensive bonus, and cost us nothing as otherwise it would be wasted. We need the tech and worker turns, of course.

I like it. It's a long term plan, but when it comes time, let's definitely try to take advantage of it.

[uberfish]

Guardian of Nature is a "fallback option" pretty much, it's there as an option if you can't solve happiness another way

[Gaspar]

I'll have comments on the comments soon, right now I give you a quick turn report as I'm exhausted from a long, long day.

Score: 5 for Clowns, 6 for Horselovers.

I misspeak re: demographics a lot, fortunately MBTM always catches it. Hippus did indeed found Jamalot 2T ago, and the Grigori and/or Elohim capital is indeed now size 9.

Cow pasture completed, Hash Pipe is now working the pasture and 2 farms and will grow in 2T. I'll work the food neutral cottages, the plains cottage, and then finally the Remnants at Happy Cap. That will slow production initially but longer term make for a better city.

As far as the future, I think I'm still inclined to get another worker out after this Settler then move onto another Settler. Someone has to build the warriors to defend it though, and I'm not inclined to build them in the Capital when all its yield can be put to use on foodhammer units instead of building warriors with Avoid Growth ticked. City 3 will have a 2 cottages and a farm to work upon founding, and pigs and cotton within a few turns. That will have to suffice for commerce until we get garrison for city 4 and I'll be willing to get the Elder Council up.

Forgot to mention this last turn when AH came in, but there are two Horse locations near our fair empire, and when I say near, I mean not really near at all. I know we need Deer for our UU HA replacement, but Horses are a decent yield tile, so I'd have been happier if they were a little more attainable. I'm think we need to settle the red X just to seal the border there. The fact that it can work the horsies and borrow the clams from the planned city SW of Hash Pipe is just a bonus, but that seems to me to be a pretty critical defensive location. I do think maybe we just need to city spam a bit.



Here's EOT demos:

[Man Behind the Mask]

As far as the future, I think I'm still inclined to get another worker out after this Settler then move onto another Settler.

I know this is a funny thing to say as the elves, but do we actually need another worker? Chronic has more improved tiles than it works, upcoming city will have its happy-cap-worth of tiles improved before it reaches size 2, and Hash Pipe has its own worker squad well ahead of its slow growth. That will leave the current workers pre-improving city 4, or roadbuilding.

Forgot to mention this last turn when AH came in, but there are two Horse locations near our fair empire, and when I say near, I mean not really near at all. I know we need Deer for our UU HA replacement, but Horses are a decent yield tile, so I'd have been happier if they were a little more attainable.

I was going to point out our horse-shortage if you hadn’t. I needed to get a look at the save, as it seemed surprising from yesterday’s screenshots that we were lacking yet again. I’m looking forward to our four coppers as compensation!

I know we’re not really supposed to mention them, but my role as the C&DFather would rather be called into question if I didn’t point out that the Balseraph’s GNP just spiked ridiculously (last Turn max 56, this turn 109 – confirmed as them on the graphs)! That is just !!! There’s no mention of GP’s or golden ages in the log, so it’s a bit of a mystery, as I’m very confident their new citizen isn’t working a 40 commerce tile . Could be a very successful lucky academy (graph maybe shows a slight tick upwards in culture).

Is it too late for a dogpile? Two Adventurers from the west, Pyre Zombies from the east and warcried Hippus from the north might still have a chance. We can supply intel with Hawks and wipe out the menagerie with Hunters. This might be the catalyst for people to do some actual diplomacy!

And unrelated to the actual turn, I feel that we need a mini-graphic for worldbuilder testing. It seems to be an integral part of getting a handle on FFH. Two things I’ve had a look at:
- Success rate on Satyr’s Mesmerise Animal seems to be pretty good, but you have to be at war to use it. The animals transfer with health and movement intact. Still doesn’t mean we should necessarily build Fawns.
- I set up a sim for Lizardman ruins. As far as I can tell, new lizards must get generated at the end of the barbarian turn. I never saw one moving straight away – the first turn a “second” lizard appeared, they were always still on the ruin and then moved to attack after giving player units an opportunity to run away. I hope that means our workers can relax a little.

[Mardoc]

I know we’re not really supposed to mention them, but my role as the C&DFather would rather be called into question if I didn’t point out that the Balseraph’s GNP just spiked ridiculously (last Turn max 56, this turn 109 – confirmed as them on the graphs)! That is just !!! There’s no mention of GP’s or golden ages in the log, so it’s a bit of a mystery, as I’m very confident their new citizen isn’t working a 40 commerce tile . Could be a very successful lucky academy (graph maybe shows a slight tick upwards in culture).

The graph is a turn delayed. Which leaves my first guess as still possible - perhaps he just finished a Carnival somewhere, and immediately settled a whole pile of animals; maybe add in Freak show(s). That would make this mostly culture. For that matter, it's even possible that it's more than one Carnival - maybe he's had carnivals for a while, and only just now decided to cash in the animal garrisons for happiness. I could imagine him deciding that the animals have achieved their purpose in acquiring him all the NAP's he needs, and what he wants now is to boost his happiness cap and grow. And at 3 culture/animal, +20% for carnival, +some for civics maybe, that could add up to a whole lot of fake GNP.

For that matter, do remember that Keelyn is Creative; 5 cities of Creative culture adds up to a bunch as well.

A second possibility, that I don't see any way for him to actually have achieved, is that he started researching Sorcery with all prereq techs already gotten. I think from your count of his techs, though, that's strictly impossible.

But if Kyan's actually got a true GNP of 100 at this point in the game, you're right, it's over.

[Gaspar]

I think everything you both just said has merit, but seriously, a jump of 40 gnp is just ludicrous. We'll have to check the graphs this turn to see if there's a big culture spike, but I agree wholeheartedly, if that's a "natural" GNP i.e. mostly commerce, we're all officially just playing for second already.

[Gaspar]

T66:

Kyan 18, Elohin 5, Nicolae 6

A momentous occasion in Elvish history occurred this turn - the building of our first road!

And truly, nothing else happened this turn. I littered the map with "C" signs to remind us of the current results of our dotmapping - this should also help us think about alternate plans if necessary. I'm not entirely sure what our short term plan is, but I really think it should mostly involving getting cities settled until we can no longer possibly afford it. I'm not an experienced FFH player, but FFH is still Civ, and if I were behind like this in BTS I'd take a big risky farmer's gambit. Go ahead more reasonable council members, talk me out of it.

By the by, this frigging jungle is like the plague. We should pull up an early map just to see how much spread has occurred. Anyway, here's an overview shot from EOT:



And here's a look at both the demos and gnp/culture graphs:

You can see his GNP came down a bit this turn, while there was no abnormal Culture spike. I'm guessing that huge spike was him researching 100%. We are all indeed doomed.