[SPOILERS - PBEM19] Huayna Capac of Ottomans - yuris125 & Maestro

[yuris125]

Yeah, opened the save before checking the thread, and... what a disappointment

One can say we lost it because of the micro mismanagement, we would've gotten it if we realised Nationalism could be researched a turn earlier. But actually, as mentioned before, the blame lies with the turn order

Anyway. It is disappointing, of course, but the turn had to be played. Stopped the chops, and told the Workers to road instead, so that we can finish those chops later without losing worker turns. Researched Monarchy at 0%. Founded Hit FM on the northern coast, Settler is in place for the next city, which will be suitably called Next FM. Got another Axe out of Maximum, should build a Settler for the White dot next

MNG's power started to grow, either he realised RL7 are after him, or is planning an attack on us. I won't do anything about it; GES is the clear favourite to win the game now, but if we want to try to catch up, however small the chance is, we shouldn't build units which will be obsolete in 15 turns or so. We will not invest in military until we get can build Janissaries. And if someone brings an army of Tanks against our Spearmen, we of course will be the favourites

[yuris125]

SotS always eats up insane amounts of my time because you can't save during the battle phase and go away to do another thing.

Oh yeah. Just before we got the turn, I had an AI rebellion in SotS. Battles in 11 colonies on the interturn! Closed SotS, opened Civ, thought I would have better news there. Haha

[oledavy]

And if someone brings an army of Tanks against our Spearmen, we of course will be the favourites

or modern armor

[yuris125]

Ok, what to do next? We have MoM, and if our position was close to GES, his extra golden age wouldn't have been a disaster. But as things stand, we won't be able to switch to Caste/Pacifism and produce more great people for at least another 20 turns; we're still founding new cities and need Slavery. By that time we can be too far behind

The way I see it, it may be time for a military solution. GES's military is even lower than ours right now, and I intend to pay close attention to its growth in the coming turns. I think we should come back to the plan of building Cats. ETA for Gunpowder is 12 turns or so; if we can get 20-25 Cats out by this time, and GES's power doesn't grow much, I would be very tempted to cancel our NAP, build/draft at least 20 Janissaries, and invade him. Maybe invite RL7 to join, we can directly tell them "if things come to late game, we would prefer to face a non-financial opponent", or find more diplomatic words. In any case, I would like RL7 to be involved in a war at the same time, so that they don't become the new runaway

Of course, it will very much depend on whether RL7 declare on MNG, and if they do, how the war goes. It's very possible that in 12 turns we will be more worried about defending against their attack. But I definitely think that if attacking GES is possible, we should do it sooner rather than later

Even if we can't attack him, cancelling the NAP and switching to a cold war state could be beneficial

Short-term, I think we should return to the matter of UoS. Without AP and Spiral Minaret, it's not such a great wonder, but still better if we have it than if GES does. The pre-chopped forests at Ultra should go into Oxford. The tech path should be Paper - Education - Gunpowder - Feudalism - Machinery - Guilds, Printing Press somewhere along the road (partially bulbed with the Great Scientist who will be out of Best FM in 20 turns), then probably Aest - Lit - Drama, unless more urgent needs appear. Drafting without a Globe Theatre will be painful, but doable

Thoughts?

[Maestro]

I agree that UoS isn't worth much without stacking benefits from AP. I definitely agree that the chops at Ultra should go into Oxford. I'm undecided on bulbing vs. golden age with a great scientist.

GES is undeniably the leader right now. 6 turns of golden age are only going to cement that truth. However, our overriding priority should be to do what benefits us the most, and I don't believe that attacking him will accomplish that.

The primary benefit of attacking GES is that we slow him down. Would we actually hold any of his land? Highly unlikely. We'd be spending hammers on military without much discernible gain. If an opportunity comes for us to 2v1 MNG or RL7, where we could actually capture and hold land, we should consider it. For the immediate future I think we keep spending as many hammers as possible on infrastructure. If we get too far behind in tech rate, it really won't matter if we attack somebody or not.

That said, a colder arrangement with GES might still be acceptable. If the very nature of our NAP cancellation causes him to build some units, then that's a win. Of course, we're still defengin with axes, so there is a small risk that he'd actually attack us. But he has the same issue with holding any our land that we have with his. If we can feel out RL7 for their relations with GES, that would help to inform our diplomatic decisions. I don't know if they'd tell us anything, but it's worth a shot. We could even approach GES to see how he feels about RL7.

In other concerns, a high food GP farm / draft center (hopefully with globe theater and national epic) would be very beneficial. Are there any locations that would be suitable for that?

[yuris125]

T98

GES completed UoS, so it's off the cards. He also founded Islam a turn or two ago, so there's nothing to stop him from getting the Spiral Minaret as well

The main news of this turn is of course RL7's declaration of war on MNG. The main question - do they plan to eliminate him? If they don't, we wouldn't mind getting a slice of his land ourselves Sent them a message asking about it; won't blame them if they don't tell, but hopefully we can get at least some kind of indication of their plans

Actually, if they have a successful campaign, they're pretty much in contention for the win. They will have significantly more land than GES, and he will not be in position to make military gains any time soon, he is the only one whose power doesn't grow atm, and I still see some of his cities defended by Warriors

As for our turn, founded the city I was talking about last turn (will post overview screenshots before leaving to Heathrow tomorrow). Moved the Workers to chop around the new cities. Researched Paper at 100%. Prepared a Galley to send a Buddhist missionary to Commodore, we agreed on a cultural exchange with him - he will send us a Hindu missionary in return

[yuris125]

The primary benefit of attacking GES is that we slow him down. Would we actually hold any of his land? Highly unlikely.

I don't agree; I think we will be able to hold his land. However, a stack of 20 Janissaries + 20 Cats is highly unlikely to completely eliminate him. Whether the cities we capture (or raze) will be sufficient to justify our investment is a good question, and I'm not sure what the answer is. Anyway, with MNG being in deep trouble, we should probably look his way first (assuming there's anything left when we're ready to attack, and this attack won't piss off RL7)

That said, a colder arrangement with GES might still be acceptable. If the very nature of our NAP cancellation causes him to build some units, then that's a win. Of course, we're still defengin with axes, so there is a small risk that he'd actually attack us.

Of course, I'm not suggesting to cancel the NAP while we're still defending with Axes. But cancelling it the turn we get Gunpowder and building Janissaries for the whole 10t cooldown period could be beneficial. Although again, it hugely depends on how RL7's war goes, and what kind of arrangements with them we can make

If we can feel out RL7 for their relations with GES, that would help to inform our diplomatic decisions. I don't know if they'd tell us anything, but it's worth a shot. We could even approach GES to see how he feels about RL7.

I think their relations are easy to figure out. The fact that GES can afford to be so light on military, and their resource deals, indicate that they're working together. However, I would be surprised if either of them wasn't looking for an opportunity to gain an advantage. If we can provide such an opportunity, they would probably welcome it. The problem is, RL7 are more logical target for us geographically, but we had good relations for most of the game. Were I to choose with whom to side, I would definitely side with them (at least at the current state of relations). In any case, once again, the outcome of the war against MNG is the key thing - how much will RL7 gain, and what will the world look like after the war? That will define the whole game in the Gunpowder/Rifling era

In other concerns, a high food GP farm / draft center (hopefully with globe theater and national epic) would be very beneficial. Are there any locations that would be suitable for that?

Three high food locations are Echo of Moscow, Maximum (once it gets pigs back from Echo) and Best FM. Either Echo or Best FM are good locations for National Epic or Globe Theatre. However, I don't think it would be good to put them in the same city, because Globe Theatre city responsibilities (drafting, whipping, and doing other things the citizens are unhappy about) and National Epic city responsibilities (grow as big as possible, hire as many specialists as possible) have kind of anti-synergy. I think I prefer Best FM as the Globe city and Echo of Moscow as the National Epic city

[yuris125]

T99

Paris has fallen. And we got this from MNG:



I declined, but now I think maybe we should sign OB with him for deception. If we're committed to attacking him of course. Of course, we need to discuss it with RL7 first, but I think they would be understanding. Would such a move make sense?

Paper in, Education due in 2 turns, we have just enough gold to finish it

[Maestro]

It's time for yet-another-mechanics-question! Yay!

We have a tile under our influence that plain doesn't make sense to me. Behold:


I've drawn the borders in for illustrative purposes. Hit FM is 0% (no expansions yet) and Nashe is 60% (4th ring). But we have the curious yellow question mark. Is this just a bug? Maybe Nicolae has a clue for me? You've helped with several of my other questions already.

[yuris125]

OK, time for an overview post. It's T99, so it comes a turn early, but I wanted to make it before going on holiday

Here is how our empire looks:

The core



The east



The south



There's still a lot of land to improve, even in the core. But we're not working any unimproved tiles, and should be able to keep it up. Although the "need more Workers" theme is definitely on playlists of all major radio stations in our empire

The cities

The capital, the immediate plan is to chop the forests around it into Oxford, then improve the tiles. It still has a decent potential



Our production city, which actually has exhausted its production potential. It will get the pigs tile back and will be able to grow fast again, but all tiles it can grow into are high commerce tiles, not high production. Which means it will need all the commerce infrastructure (Market, Lib, etc.). And it also needs to produce units. We want too much from this city, don't we?



A rather lame GP farm, but we didn't have a better high food location until recently. Having +7 food surplus (if we fire the scientists) is decent, but far from great



This city has no room for improvement anymore, one more water tile, a windmill on the hill, a specialist (or a workshop on the plains) - that's it, we won't be able to get more from it



This city has the potential to be the 3rd production centre (after Ultra and Maximum). Again, nothing spectacular, but nothing to sniff at either. Just notices it works an unimproved forest, that's an oversight, should switch to the unworked plains cottage







Eastern cities are pretty much whipping polygons. So far, they have exactly 1 mine between 3 of them. Their main purpose is to get the basic infrastructure whipped, and then produce as much commerce as they can



The Moai city, going to be awesome once it grows and builds the infra



Another whipping polygon, will work all water tiles in sight and support 4 specialists (or cruel drafting) (by the way, why isn't the Lib whipped? Do it next turn!)



This city actually has a potential to do something useful once the plains hill mine is built. That's not a priority for the moment though, working water tiles and providing commerce is more important





Southern cities are founded mostly on principle "better we have this land than someone else". Although they do have decent resources, and can provide at least something for the empire





Newly founded filler cities on the northern coast. Not much to say about them, one word - fillers

Total, we have 15 cities, which is approximately the same as the leaders, GES and RL7. The quality of some of them is questionable though; once MNG's cities are integrated into RL7's empire, I expect them to have much better cities than everyone else. Our expansion is almost over, there are just 2 more filler cities to found. Then it's just growing them, maximising the use of our land, preparing to capture more if possible :aar:

Graphs

There are a couple of things worth noting in the graphs. First, our MFG graph, which is very, very underwhelming. And the worst thing is, there's not much we can do about it, our production potential is almost maxed out. We will just have to do the best with what we have. Second is RL7's espionage graph, looks like they didn't bother with Courthouses at all - on a toroidal map! Certainly an interesting play

Finally, the demos. Which are not as bad as I feared



Diplo

RL7 - we're NAPed until T111, and negotiating an extension. They're reluctant to extend it, and I certainly can see why - they have a huge army, we have a very insignificant one. They have Astro + circumnav bonus, we will delay Astro as much as possible because of Colossus. I offered to continue providing them with ivory if they extend the NAP; they didn't reply so far, but after making the offer I noticed that they're in position to capture MNG's ivory. That's probably the main reason why they're delaying the reply. In any case, I believe there is some goodwill between our teams, and my feeling is we will be able to negotiate an extended NAP - although it could cost us an arm and a leg

GES - we're on a 10t rolling NAP, and it could be in our interest to cancel it soon, to force him to build some military. He is behind us in power, and our power is laughable. We have rather neutral relations with him, basically we didn't talk after we signed a NAP and made a map trade. If we succeeded in stealing Taj from him, it could have affected our relations... but we didn't

Commodore - "developing nations should work together to catch up", etc., etc. We're on very friendly terms with him, NAPed until T130, have a good dialogue going, and never had any diplo issues with him

MNG - our relations are still cool, without open hostilities, but there's definitely no goodwill between us. For the last turns, our diplo consisted of him offering open borders, and us declining these offers. And I can't imagine how he will feel if we land a stack in his land in 15 turns (if there's any of his land still left by that time). I think MNG played a solid Civ game, better than we did, but his diplo was awful. My impression is, not making any friends in a game with diplo is almost a sure way to lose - and he not only didn't make friends, he didn't even try

In general, I think the score reflects current standings pretty well. GES and RL7 are fighting for the lead, GES with scientific lead, RL7 with military lead. We're in a distant 3rd, trying to find a way to catch up. Commodore is behind us mostly because of his expansion problems; I suspect he would've been a much stronger contender if he didn't have to expand through MNG. MNG... I'm not sure if RL7 will finish him off, but they will definitely cripple him. And again, with him having no friends, I wouldn't be surprised if another team (maybe ourselves) attacks him in a dozen turns, even if RL7 let him live