Uncommonly Good: A Story of Elves

[Mardoc]

Counterpropositions... meaning Kyan had already thrown a proposition at him. Now Kyan can't realistically fight us right now, but Rawkking can... Normally I'd think the possibility of a dogpile on the 4th place Civ is highly unlikely, but we are talking about Kyan here. I don't think we have any chance of fighting off a coordinated attack without the worldspell, and even in that case, its pretty scary. Regardless, more and more I think I'd like to try and cozy up to Nicolae, since Rawkking doesn't seem to respond to my emails. That's a classic pre-war guilt assuaging technique. Anyway, thoughts?

I don't want to, but I agree with your analysis. RG was very good about responding earlier.

What I don't quite see is how to get from point A to point B - how do we buddy up to Nicolae?

Also - do the two of them have direct contact yet? Or are their communications being filtered by Kyan? 'Oh, yeah, sure, the Sheaim are definitely going to hit the elves, you should make sure to get your share'

If it's the latter - do we want to facilitate a meeting? I can see that working either way; either they definitely plan to hit us and meeting just makes coordination easier, or their doubts feed off one another and the plan is cancelled. We no longer have to worry about the Ogre threat, but it's probably some time before we have Cartography for trade routes.

If they are plotting a dogpile, it's probably something more in the nature of what happened to Mr. Yellow than what happened to Ilios; that is, they're in it for spoils. In which case our best diplomatic defense is to make it clear that would be much more expensive than profitable.

[Man Behind the Mask]

I don't say enough, but you are an absolute dream to have as a teammate, MBTM.

The sentiment is appreciated. *pimp* However, you do also need people who actually know what they are talking about, as evidenced by…

One minor quibble: Temples of Leaves will cost 40 hammers, not 80, thanks to our Spiritual trait.

That fact makes me much more content to go along with the consensus for Festivals next. I still think we will be tight on having time to slow-build two Priests in each location before the deadline, but if we’re happy to spend a few turns of gold on a couple of Disciple upgrades then it would be nice to have both the infrastructure and a sufficiently large defensive force. That decision can be taken based on the military at the time, and any Disciples built will be useful at some point even if they don’t get the nicer costume.

Onto the questions:

1. Can we direct Nicolae's attention elsewhere so we can start any hostilities on our schedule rather than his?

Nicolae has been researching OK, and that will pick up even more now he’s in Aristocracy. However, he is behind on cities/population and stuck between the ocean, the runaway leader, and a civ with a defensive worldspell. He hasn’t shown any signs of a specific gameplan, for example he is leaving any potential PZ rush very late, and it’s therefore difficult to anticipate what he hopes to achieve next. Hopefully, that means he is more susceptible to influence, and we can be the ones in his ear.

2. What do we need for defense against possible invasions from either the Sheaim or Hippus?

I agree with your assessment of the Hippus. The big problems with defending against them are location and mobility. They will come in from the non-forested end of our empire and are more than capable of running away until a March of the Trees counts itself down. However, if they’re just bringing horsemen, then bronze warriors (or an equal number of Priests) in a hill city will actually do an ok job of stopping them. We’d need Tigers or similar to clean up any units that withdraw, but I actually think we can be reasonably safe until they get Horse Archers en masse.

3. What's the opportunity cost of using March of the Trees?

One point here is that it’s worth drawing the enemy well into your territory so that as many trees as possible can get in on the action. That actually suggests we don’t settle too much further in Nicolae’s direction and let our large cultural borders delay any fighting for a few extra turns. The only downside here is the potential fires, but I can’t see how we mitigate that risk.

I hope I’ve covered all the thoughts where my response wasn’t

Diplo:

I do think that we are a little overdue in keeping relations building with our two neighbours. There hasn’t been much to say, but the little tos-and-fros can help build trust and common ground. RG has always been pretty poor at responding to diplo, though, but maybe that’s partly due to the increased challenge of the roleplay style. As mentioned above, it’s tough to get a read on Nicolae, but some back and forth might be the only way to find out where he stands.

I am absolutely certain that Kyan is using “they left uberfish alone in PBEM2 and look what happened there!” in his diplomacy – he even tried it in a chat with Gaspar . If he is goading the other two into a dogpile, then we should be able to sell that we are definitely a worse target than the score/pop/GNP leader who is yet to get the techs he needs for an army of a billion summons. We ourselves are getting very close to the point where we are difficult to beat conclusively in a straight up fight, so war with the Elves will be costly. If they want to come at us with coconuts, we’ll be ready to kick them through plate-glass windows .


There was also a turn, wasn’t there?

Having a C2, Shock unit could be handy, given the wartime issues we’re grappling with at the moment. I hope that we can carry the 1-2-3 Kid through the upgrade chain to something more worthy of his promotions.

[Gaspar]

Ok, I drafted this to Rawwking. Please edit, I don't love it.

Hey Rawkking,

I decided to drop the RP, since while it was fun, its also apparent it wasn't getting anywhere. Honestly, given the infrequency of our conversations plus the fact that you met the silver-tongued Clown King first, the team is starting to grow concerned that you're being nice and quiet so as to not feel too bad when you Warcry-rush us. I can't say that I disagree with the thought, probably it makes sense to you, particularly if you have a nice, long NAP with the clowns.

I'm not one to tell someone how to run his own Civ, but I think its pretty clear I'm not the most logical target. Your southern neighbor is running away with the game, with a GNP through the roof. Given that your particular teams strength lie in fast expansion and a strong economy early, the fact that he's already beating you at both of those games should indicate that leaving him be is just a recipe for second place. Turn 70 seems a little early to have written the game off, but if Kyan isn't stopped, nobody's stronger in the midgame than the Balseraphs, if they get to Mages before the rest of us have strong Tier 2 units/religious heroes, there's no stopping them. Triple that if they land Gibbon. The Elves have a reputation as a powerhouse late game Civ, but I think that's more an indication of uberfish's strong play in PBEM2, I'm going to strive for that, but I suspect I'll be luckier to replicate Nyktorion's play from PBEM3, and he's currently getting smoked by Thoth, who much like Kyan, started in flood plains, expanded well and his neighbors ignore him for too long.

Anyway, you're going to do what you're going to do, but I feel I'd be remiss if I didn't point out the folly of middle civs fighting each other. We should either be ganging up on the leader or absorbing guppies. You and I fighting is just simply going to result in a bloody stalemate, or even should you come out on top, the time wasted is just going to further cement the Clowns as the game winners. If you're okay with that, game on, but I know I'd rather not throw away already several months of play on a waste of time.

Bluntly yours,
Gaspar, Ljosalfar High Council

[Gaspar]

And this for Nicolae...

Hey Nicolae,

I was reading a thread for one of the other PBEMs and saw the quote: "Close neighbors need to be either allies or dead ASAP" and immediately thought of you. I suppose we're getting to the point of the game where we either start building up to a war at our NAP expiration or find some common ground for cooperation.

I'll be honest, I've sort of assumed I'd see an invading PZ stack at T100 ever since I initiated contact with my threat - I don't blame you at all for holding that against me. I really had no option though, if you had beelined BW, you'd have PZ's before I even had my worldspell, and there's nothing I was going to come up with that early that could defend.

Anyway, I'm sending you this mail to indicate that I really see no point in us fighting. In a best case scenario, we're the 3rd and 5th placed civs, realistically, we're 4th and 5th. Kyan and Rawkking have rocketed out to great starts, and we've clearly gotten short shrift in terms of land quality. Even though you might be better placed than me to improve all this jungle, the fact that we're surrounded by it had slowed us both down. Add to that your professed lack of food and my professed lack of commerce and you get what we have now.

I think the only chance either of us have in this game is to remain peaceful with one another and cooperate to hurt the big dogs to our west. I have some thoughts on how we could manage that, but its not worth discussing without some sort of commitment in that arena from you. So right now, I'd like to know what you see as our potential for that.

Regards,
Gaspar, Ljosalfar High Council

I won't send either until I get some feedback.

[Mardoc]

Overall, I like the Nicolae message. I think it might be worth showing a bit of the carrot, too, in addition to the stick. We could offer to cede jungled land, or make mana deals, maybe see about arranging for Cartography for one of us (sadly we're the logical ones, but maybe we could trade that for clearing and mining our gold?) and some foreign trade. Basically come up with something that's a reason to keep talking regularly aside from war coordination.

Also: it might be worth mentioning that although the Clowns *will* be scary, they're also an opportunity for the enterprising young necromancer, particularly if he has some friendly Hunters along looking to stock up their carnivals.

For RG; hmm. I don't particularly like the message either, but I'm at a loss to say why, and hence how to fix it.

[Man Behind the Mask]

Happy for any proposals to be disregarded, but here are my thoughts about the straight-talking.

I agree with Mardoc that the Nicolae message is pretty good. I would change “In a best case scenario, we're the 3rd and 5th placed civs, realistically, we're 4th and 5th.” to “as things stand, it looks like the best our civs can hope for is third place.” I wouldn’t want to make him feel defensive and therefore potentially aggressive by questioning his play too much. Maybe you wanted to emphasise that we were ahead, and therefore would be a tough target, though?

The RG message is tougher to comment on, but I think it is maybe too confrontational. So far, he has been friendly, so leaping straight to accusations of malice might be a bit much. Maybe just adding something like “I really hope that isn’t the case, but felt I should get my diplomatic defense in while I prepare my physical one”, will soften the introduction to the hard facts?

Again, I think you can tone down a little on the fact he has been “outplayed” at his civ’s strengths. Similarly, I’d read a word like “folly” as incitement if I was keen to attack, had rationalised it to myself, but still kind of wavering. A lot of the logic and points made are good, but we just need to get the tone more towards a peaceful future together than daring him on, which I get the feeling is the underlying sentiment at the moment.

I’m sure you can come up with some improvements!

[pling]

To me the RG message reads a bit like a combination of a distraction & an accusation (I keep wanting to phrase that as "hey! look over there! a three headed monkey!" ), whereas the Nicolae one is more "why don't we buddy up and take out one of the big guys, then we'll be important too". Is there something you can try & sell to RG that makes it more "we're in this together" than "please beat him up instead"? I'm not clear on the geography in my head, but are there concessions you could make to RG if he helped you take out Nicolae's land, for instance? Offering to work together on something might make him more likely to reply and even strengthen any wavering about attacking you, maybe?

Just my tuppennyworth, treat it as it deserves

[Azoth]

I agree that a softer tone would be better.
For instance, that last paragraph in the Nicolae email...

"I think the only chance either of us have in this game is to remain peaceful with one another and cooperate to hurt the big dogs to our west. I have some thoughts on how we could manage that, but its not worth discussing without some sort of commitment in that arena from you. So right now, I'd like to know what you see as our potential for that."

...could be revised as follows:

"I think our only chance in this game is to work together and make gains against the big dogs to our west. I have some ideas on how our partnership could work, so I'm hoping for some sort of commitment from you moving forward. Of course, I am open to any thoughts you may have on the subject."

You don't have to agree to all of those changes but I think both emails could use some retooling in that direction. In particular, you could ask both Rawkking and Nicolae what their goals are and what they would hope to gain from a partnership. For Nicolae, something along the lines of "It's hard to offer a counter-proposal when you've just arrived at the table. Did you have something in mind?" might be best.

[Gaspar]

Ok, edited but not sent message to the Hippus:

Hey Rawkking,

I decided to drop the RP, since while it was fun, its also a bit of work, and might be slowing down our communication potential. Honestly, given the infrequency of our conversations plus the fact that you met the silver-tongued Clown King first, the team is starting to grow concerned that you're being nice and quiet so as to not feel too bad when you Warcry-rush us. I can't say that I disagree with the thought, particularly if you have a nice, long NAP with the clowns.

Personally, I'd prefer cooperation. While we're neighbors, we're not on top of one another the way the N/S civ pairings are. Not to mention that your southern neighbor is running away with the game, with a GNP through the roof. Given that that particular teams strengths don't lie in fast expansion and a strong economy early, the fact that he's already beating us at both of those key indicators seems to indicate that leaving him be is just a recipe for a battle for second place. Turn 70 seems a little early to have written the game off, but if we don't slow them down somehow the Clowns will be virtually unstoppable come T125 or so, especially if they get to Mages before the rest of us have strong Tier 2 units/religious heroes. Triple that if they land Gibbon. Given your solid traits and my Civ's strengths, I feel like a partnership would serve us both well into the late game.

Anyway, I'd mostly like to explore some ways that our Civs can cooperate into the future. Obviously trade routes would benefit us both - not sure whether Cartography is in your short term plans or not, but we could make an effort there. Is there anything else the Elves can do for you? Honestly, I don't know if its my poor scouting efforts or the map, but I feel awfully isolated over here, and so its hampered my efforts at diplomacy to some extent. This is step one in me working to correct that. Here's hoping we can find some common ground in this crazy world.

Regards,
Gaspar, Ljosalfar High Council

[Gaspar]

Likewise, Nicolae.

Hey Nicolae,

I was reading a thread for one of the other PBEMs and saw the quote: "Close neighbors need to be either allies or dead ASAP" and immediately thought of you. I suppose we're getting to the point of the game where we either start building up to a war at our NAP expiration or find some common ground for cooperation.

I'll be honest, I've sort of assumed I'd see an invading PZ stack at T100 ever since I initiated contact with my threat - I don't blame you at all for holding that against me. I really had no option though, if you had beelined BW, you'd have PZ's before I even had my worldspell, and there's nothing I was going to come up with that early that could defend.

Anyway, I'm sending you this mail to indicate that I really see no point in us fighting. As things stand, it looks like the best our civs can hope for is third place. Kyan and Rawkking have rocketed out to great starts, and we've clearly gotten short shrift in terms of land quality. Even though you might be better placed than me to improve all this jungle, the fact that we're surrounded by it had slowed us both down. Add to that your professed lack of food and my professed lack of commerce and you get what we have now.

I think our only chance in this game is to work together and make gains against the big dogs to our west. I have some ideas on how our partnership could work, so I'm hoping for some sort of commitment from you moving forward. Of course, I am open to any thoughts you may have on the subject.

Regards,
Gaspar, Ljosalfar High Council