Yeah, if he goes AI extort everything you can for peace immediately the turn after and just ignore it until such time as which you have nothing better to do.
I'd say at this point, unless SL comes up with something, he's got to be the next target. Serdoa isn't even mildly threatening at this point, where as SL is probably the new top dog in a post-Balseraph world.
I've got some dirt on my shoulder, can you brush it off for me?
Gaspar Wrote:Yeah, if he goes AI extort everything you can for peace immediately the turn after
Sorry to say so but in my eyes that would be cheating. You wouldn't get anything from Bob so either you say that he has to play on or you refrain from abusing the AI.
Rowain Wrote:Sorry to say so but in my eyes that would be cheating. You wouldn't get anything from Bob so either you say that he has to play on or you refrain from abusing the AI.
Hmmm. I guess I see your point, but I recall reading in some other games here, PBEM6 for one, the players extorting an AI in takeover for whatever tribute they could get. I suppose I considered this standard practice. I guess I'd want assurance that nobody does it then, because in Balseraph-ia's weakened state, any of the players could get tribute from an AI Keelyn. If everyone agrees to that as part of the handover, then fine, but if anyone is going to get tribute from him, it seems to me the team that's actually put him in the weakened position should be the one to get the spoils.
I've got some dirt on my shoulder, can you brush it off for me?
For me the situation was more on the line of you telling SL: Hey we don't need any tribute from you as we have just extorted Balseraphs thanks to Bob quitting
PS If the other players are all ok with it then go on
Gaspar Wrote:I'd say at this point, unless SL comes up with something, he's got to be the next target. Serdoa isn't even mildly threatening at this point, where as SL is probably the new top dog in a post-Balseraph world.
Speaking of which:
Square Leg Wrote:[COLOR="SandyBrown"]Hi Mardoc,
I think you have hit the nail on the head regarding Acheron. That said, had he been placed on an island which required ocean fairing boats to reach the Sons wouldn't have arrived for quite a long time. It certainly would have helped for the balance of this game anyway, regardless of whether the big red dragon is placed in any future games.
Mind III on puppets is nasty and risk free since if they lose the promotion it doesn't matter. Keelyn and the Balseraph in general are pretty unbalanced!!!
Back to the negotiations then; 40gpt for 30t... That is 1200gp... call it 1100gp (36.6gpt) and allow me to settle a city near the standing stones and we have a deal.
I still think this is an excellent deal for you considering all the factors. I know I have negotiated fairly hard to reduce you down but that is because I have put a lot of time and effort into this game and I don't want to be playing for another 30+ turns without having a chance. I'd rather it all ended now if that were the case. I will be severely hampered by this commitment, and once I come out of GA my GNP will be affected by quite a lot.
If you agree in principle to this then we can discuss the details more in time.
Cheers,
SL[/COLOR]
Mardoc, sent Wrote:[COLOR="Orange"]Square Leg,
I see where you're coming from. Honestly, I hadn't realized that you were currently in a golden age; I thought that was your baseline!
Overall, I can agree to this. I won't sign anything until I run it past the lurkers (well, Gaspar) to make sure I'm not giving away anything inadvertently in the details, but we'll likely be able to hammer this out before I have a chance to play the save.
What I've come up with so far:
Let's round it off to 37 gpt to make up for ceding the Standing Stones. It's currently T142, so 30 turns from that would be end of T171.
What I would prefer is a straight 37 gpt transfer, plus a back payment for the period of now until one of us reaches Currency, to be delivered within 3 turns of that happening. I would prefer the Standing Stones city to be placed north of the stones, as well, and the rest of former Balseraphs is mine.
I would like to add a condition that you not provide anything to the Sheaim you're not doing already: no gifts of Iron to boost Pyre Zombies, or free resources, warning, etc.
As you may have noticed, we're close to hitting Blight. I would invite either Luchiurp Life adepts, or a trade of Life for Nature mana, to sanctify the various ruins left from the wars, so that we don't have to worry about it.
Are there any details you'd like to add, or object to so far?
Also, in other areas: you'd mentioned a settling agreement with Tredje. If we're not going to war, then I'd like to abide by it; can you send me the details?
Similarly, I'm interested in arranging various resource deals; those can be separate agreements, though.
[/COLOR]
Anything else I should add, now that we're to the 'important details' stage of negotiation?
Why am I willing to cede the Standing Stones? Mostly because I don't think I should be spending hammers on settlers for the most part, with the possible exception of really strong sites like the southern island that was razed. Especially with my maintenance bill the way it is, I doubt (m)any new cities will pay for themselves in gold, and certainly not in hammers. This is of course why Iskender preferred to raze cities when possible , so that I'd have this choice to make.
Now, this might just be letting him back in the game. But it'll be more fun that way . Former Balseraphia, plus our own golden age (or Bone Palace if lucky/good), plus this transfer, plus what we can get from the Sheaim, is probably enough to make it where we want to go. I'll put Ashen Veil as the higher priority out of that and Iron Working, so we can have time for Ritualists to grow up. And because AV provides beakers
So, where do we want to go, anyway? I'm thinking what's important is Philosophy -> Way of the Wicked -> Corruption of Spirit -> Priesthood
Maybes:
Warfare (Military State + Conquest)
Infernal Pact (if we have extra beakers, Sacrifice the Weak would be nice)
Arcane tech -> Sorcery (only if we get very lucky with adepts' XP gain rate)
Feudalism (Royal Guard to keep our hasting adepts alive)
Writing -> Trade (more money, although I doubt this would pay for itself with no libraries)
Construction -> Sanitation
Gaspar Wrote:Yeah, if he goes AI extort everything you can for peace immediately the turn after and just ignore it until such time as which you have nothing better to do.
Rowain Wrote:Sorry to say so but in my eyes that would be cheating. You wouldn't get anything from Bob so either you say that he has to play on or you refrain from abusing the AI.
Gaspar Wrote:Hmmm. I guess I see your point, but I recall reading in some other games here, PBEM6 for one, the players extorting an AI in takeover for whatever tribute they could get. I suppose I considered this standard practice. I guess I'd want assurance that nobody does it then, because in Balseraph-ia's weakened state, any of the players could get tribute from an AI Keelyn. If everyone agrees to that as part of the handover, then fine, but if anyone is going to get tribute from him, it seems to me the team that's actually put him in the weakened position should be the one to get the spoils.
I think I agree with Rowain here, but it wouldn't hurt to get clarification from the others in the game. I do definitely agree that the final crushing of the clowns can wait quite a while, although I still feel the need to find Orthus' Axe for Iskender, and I still want to resettle the island cities.
As an aside - here's something I find amusing. SL originally proposed 15 gpt, I proposed 50, and we ended up exactly in the middle at 37, after all that negotiating. I was tempted to ask for 37.5 just to make it perfect symmetry
Mardoc Wrote:As an aside - here's something I find amusing. SL originally proposed 15 gpt, I proposed 50, and we ended up exactly in the middle at 37, after all that negotiating. I was tempted to ask for 37.5 just to make it perfect symmetry
Maybe I'm getting old and rusty but wouldn't the middle be 32.5 ?
Rowain Wrote:And now I wonder where the 12.5 come from
(50 -15 = 35 )
But thats ok thats why the Orc had to capture the smart Amurites
It came from the assumption I was correct in my initial thought, rather than calculation: 50 - 37.5 = 12.5, 15 + 12.5 looks kinda like 37.5 if you're doing the math quickly in your head.
So, um, if that's why we captured the Amurites, why did we capture the Balseraphs? To develop our sense of twisted humor?
In any event, it looks like we have a deal.
Square Leg Wrote:[COLOR="SandyBrown"]Hey Mardoc,
Hopefully your lurkers will be as adamant as mine that this deal vastly favours the Clan! Honest, you read the threads afterward the game!
Are you currently heading towards currency or should I pick it up? I don't mind as it is a pretty solid tech to get now but if you are already heading there, I will refrain and save some gold for the back payment.
37gpt is ok and I am happy with your proposed method of payment. Eot 171 it is.
Seeing as you didn't notice I was in GA, I should probably point out, Iskender is too.
The trades I have with Serdoa are quite critical to me, although perhaps the horse is a little redundant now I don't have to build Ratha's immediately. The ale however is keeping my cities happy.
The Standing Stones city I would like to settle is 1N of the stones.
I am happy to send 1 or 2 life adepts to sactify ruins in the ex blaseraph lands and have 1 ready to go. He will make his way down via the standing stones. I'd appreciate it you could warn me of any barbs in the area so he doesn't get face-planted on his way thorugh.
Tredje and I did have a border arrangement. Here is an image showing the border at the time. I later asked Tredje about settling the site of Porco Rosso and he agreed. Originally he planned on settling 1S of the ivory I beleive but obviously you don't have to if you don't want to. There is a barb city in that area at the moment that I plan to raise next turn. Tredje had asked me to do this a long time ago but barny ended up dying twice trying to do it.... If you didn't know already, I hate him, he is such a crap hero... This time he will win!
It will become obvious to Iskender and Serdoa the nature of our agreement once the gold transfer starts however, I'd appreciate it if you didn't let on about it until then.
Lastly, I'd also like it if you would refrain from walking your troops around my lands. Not to say that I don't want them entering at all, just if you could let me know as and when. I do have an agreement with Serdoa and Iskender not to let an enemy scout or attack thorugh my lands and I'd like to uphold that.
Other than that I think we should be ok? Other resource trades etc are fine, but I will need to see the game first.
Cheers,
SL[/COLOR]
And my response:
Mardoc Wrote:[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Square Leg, I think I'll mostly respond point by point to this e-mail,
since we're getting into details and I don't want to miss anything.
> Hopefully your lurkers will be as adamant as mine that this deal vastly
> favours the Clan! Honest, you read the threads afterward the game!
Hah, Gaspar was thinking 50 gpt was a low number. He thinks I'm a
wishy-washy peacenik for compromising here.
>Are you currently heading towards currency or should I pick it up?
I should reach Currency in 2-3 turns. With so many cities and so
little money, it seemed a pretty obvious choice.
>The trades I have with Serdoa are quite critical to me
I'm not asking you to quit your current deals, nor do I have a problem
with fair trades. Mostly I just want to prevent you gifting him mana
or metal.
I'll be open to various resource trades to replace those you have with
the Sheaim once they prove...unable to meet their end of the deal .
> The Standing Stones city I would like to settle is 1N of the stones.
I'll check the save tonight, but probably this is ok with me.
> I am happy to send 1 or 2 life adepts to sactify ruins in the ex blaseraph
> lands and have 1 ready to go. He will make his way down via the standing
> stones. I'd appreciate it you could warn me of any barbs in the area so he
> doesn't get face-planted on his way thorugh.
Can do! I'll also give you directions to the ruins. At the moment,
the only barbs in the area are those at the barb city you're planning
to raze. Fingers crossed that doesn't cross us over to Blight on its
own!
> Tredje and I did have a border arrangement. Here is an image showing the
> border at the time.
Err...really? I don't see an attachment anyway.
> It will become obvious to Iskender and Serdoa the nature of our agreement
> once the gold transfer starts however, I'd appreciate it if you didn't let
> on about it until then.
That's fine.
> Lastly, I'd also like it if you would refrain from walking your troops
> around my lands. Not to say that I don't want them entering at all, just if
> you could let me know as and when. I do have an agreement with Serdoa and
> Iskender not to let an enemy scout or attack thorugh my lands and I'd like
> to uphold that.
I can agree to this, if you'll give me the same protection from them.
Sometime tonight I'll put together a treaty including all these
details, so we have everything in one spot summarized.
- Mardoc[/COLOR]
So, the treaty, as it currently stands (unsigned but likely to be signed):
Quote:Turn 142 treaty between the Clan and the Luchiurp:
We will immediately sign a NAP to last from now until the end of turn 171
For the duration of the NAP, the Luchiurp will pay the Clan 37 gold/turn. Since neither of us has Currency at the moment, the payments will start within 3 turns of the acquisition of Currency, and include back payment for all turns between T142 and the acquisition date.
Neither of us is to deliberately spread word about this treaty. We're not required to lie about it, however.
The Luchiurp may settle a city 1N of the Standing Stones, but the rest of former Balseraph lands belong to the Clan. The previous settlement agreement applies to the border included in the picture.
Both Clan and Luchiurp are allowed to pass through each others' land, except for the purpose of attacking or scouting a third party. Third parties will not be allowed through Clan/Luchiurp land to attack the other treaty member. To verify this, notification is required to make use of the open borders.
Provisions I want to confirm are added:
The Luchiurp shall not infringe the spirit of the NAP by providing free gifts to the enemies of the Clan. Fair trades are acceptable.
Quote:As a separate deal, to remove one temptation to lawyer the NAP:
Luchiurp will provide 1+ life adepts to reduce the existential risk to the world by sanctifying ruins; Clan will give Luchiurp fair warning of barbarians and other threats to the adepts.
As a separate theme: the Clan are happy to do business with the Luchiurp with their newly acquired spoils. Ideas include resource for resource trades, resource for gold trades, mana deals, religion spreading, etc. and so on.
And, in other questions - do I want to settle any more cities? And if so, where?
On the one hand, I can build my settlers using food, at a Warrens city, to make them pretty cheap. Between markets and trade routes and Organized Courthouses, they might even pay for themselves.
On the other hand, they're still going to cost hammers to start, hammers to garrison, money until they get their infrastructure built, worker turns...and I don't expect the game to go on all that much longer for them to have time to pay back.
I'm thinking...what makes sense is to pick spots where either there's very good stuff, like a Gold tile and intercontinental trade routes, or where the land is already improved (ex-Balseraph lands, mostly). And settle them soon. Aside from that, don't build any filler cities, don't build any cities that will be slow to start, don't build any cities that require lots of worker time.
