Post Game Thread

[Thoth]

I'll need a bit to get my thoughts in order and I'm going to be spending some time reading other people's threads but here is the post-mortem thread.

[Mardoc]

As a quick summary - well, Gaspar scolded me at one point, something along the lines of "I think you worry too much about what a post-Thoth world would look like". That pretty much summarizes my mistakes - I realized I was behind quite early, but never was able to summon the trust I needed to work with Nyktorion, WarriorKnight, and Irgy to actually do something about the Malakim.

Which in turn meant that there never was a post-Thoth world. I should never have signed the second NAP, and possibly not signed the first one, and I should definitely have been much more aggressive much sooner.

[WarriorKnight]

Looking back, I can't believe how much I smoked throughout the game. The first part of the game I was in SP mode (which is ), and the second half was just plain diplomatically. But that's hindsight. Although I can say that if darrel didn't invade me and force me to burn Sanctuary the very turn he spawned, I doubt I would've left the dogpile.

[Mardoc]

So, a somewhat more thought-out summary from the perspective of the Lanun:

First, I had a blast. Everyone I dealt with was polite, the game moved at a generally good pace, and I learned a lot about FFH in the process. Special thanks to DaveV for that last bit .

Second - it's somewhat shocking how much the final outcome was affected by the map. Thoth certainly had the best starting position, and was able to ride that to victory. That said - I'm glad it was him in charge of the Malakim, because he also demonstrated considerable skill at diplomacy, at warfare, and at squeezing the most out of his civ. It's somewhat shocking, reading all our introductory posts with Malakim universally panned.

I never had a good handle on what was happening to the east, beyond Thoth; I think the Elohim invasion of the Sheaim was definitely a good thing for the Elohim, but their timing was badly off. Everyone underestimated Thoth, but the Elohim more than the rest of us. Frankly, I don't understand why the Elohim signed *any* NAP's; Sanctuary dominated both its era and inhibited even thoughts of invasion.

Had the Elohim attacked Thoth while Nyktorion still had an army (say, T160-165), and I followed up - well, the game would likely still be going. It's hard to say which of us would come out on top: Nyktorion was damaged badly by March of the Trees, the Elohim had the most land and probably the best army; I merely had commerce coming out my ears. Everything would probably have depended on who allied first.

As the Lanun, I made a large share of moves. First and foremost, I put far too little effort into scouting; knocking out a couple workboats to find people before all the coasts were closed would have given me a lot more options. I'd have been much more likely to trust the easterners and try for a T140 attack on the Malakim if I'd been talking with them longer - and that's an attack that might well have worked.

I also wasted time in Aristocracy and an early Code of Laws - I don't think I built a single Courthouse and only ever had something like 8 farms. Meanwhile, I didn't enter Slavery until extremely late game, so I was always hurting for hammers - which meant my infrastructure was underdeveloped, my new city settlement was much slower than it should have been, and the biggie - I never had an army until it was too late to matter. If I'd been keeping Thoth looking over his shoulder, both Mr. Yellow and Nyktorion would have done better - and who knows what would have happened then?

Frankly, of everyone in the game, I probably have the most guilt for letting the Malakim run away: they were the only foreign situation I could affect/had to directly worry about.

All that said - the Lanun aren't nearly as powerful a civ as I had thought beforehand. They're good at turning areas other civs don't like (coasts) into viable cities, but any typical Lanun city is less powerful than a floodplains or even very grassy inland city running Aristocracy. Starting Fishing -> workboats is a slow start, as well. I think the ideal Lanun play would be to act just like a normal civ on land, and *also* settle all the coastal land that no one else wants. Trying to do this with just the coastal land didn't work.

If the original worldbuilder file is still out there, I'd like to give this a whirl as a single player game, to see how much better I can do now that I know how to run the Lanun. (and without Thoth in charge of my immediate neighbor :neenernee)

[Amelia]

I think the key advantage of Lanun are their 4 food coasts, same like 4 food farms except that you get it faster, as long as you put in a few hammers (Lighthouses are dirt-cheap, unlike many other buildings).

And thus, you need specialists. Lanun plays on a mixture of cove-specialist economy. And yet, you cannot ignore the mainland, since in the end they'll produce more than those fishing villages ever could... it's really a tight balance. Not a beginner civ as i thought.

One of the mains points for the Lanun is that either you head for slavery straight up, or you rush for conquest and forget building ever again. You went for slavery, I went for conquest. In the end, slavery is better if you're going for long-term, but conquest really works in pushing out units. (I think i had production of units equal to Darrell and Uberfish with 7 cities, but needed 20 turns to take out a single building).

[Mardoc]

I think the key advantage of Lanun are their 4 food coasts, same like 4 food farms except that you get it faster, as long as you put in a few hammers (Lighthouses are dirt-cheap, unlike many other buildings).

Are we playing the same game? Only lakes get to 4 food. Coast and lakes also only get to 3 commerce while farms are 4 commerce. And farms can easily be 5 food on floodplains.

Lighthouses are ~110 hammers, more than two workers and can only be built with hammers. Plus they're a lot harder to jumpstart in a new city; if you're careful you can start a new city with farms already built, but that lighthouse will take a while.

Coves, now, those are actually better than farms. But they do cost hammers and considerable time to set up, and of course are limited in number.

[Amelia]

Ah, i knew there was something missing from my head. Remember that my entire game was using lakes not coasts =P

Honestly though, i found lighthouses really easy to build, compared to monstrosities like stables... I was rushing everything with cash though, so maybe that's why.

Then again, my game was hardly a typical Lanun experience due to the amount of lakes near coasts, especially pirate coves on lakes... So i guess i shouldn't be saying much =P

[Ilios]

Yeah, cash-rushing buildings is the way to go with the Lanun.

[darrelljs]

Although I can say that if darrel didn't invade me and force me to burn Sanctuary the very turn he spawned, I doubt I would've left the dogpile.

I had no plans to actually fight you, I was trying to get the upper hands in any negotiations. I was shocked when you fired your world spell. I don't now if I grossly miscalculated, or you overreacted, but it definitely turned out poorly for both of us.

Darrell

[WarriorKnight]

I had no plans to actually fight you, I was trying to get the upper hands in any negotiations. I was shocked when you fired your world spell. I don't now if I grossly miscalculated, or you overreacted, but it definitely turned out poorly for both of us.

Darrell

Given your cramped starting position on my border and that you sent the majority of the Infernal starting units after my nearest city with no message, I simply assumed that you weren't interested in talking and was trying to get some decent land to expand into.

I probably should have tried to negotiate with you though, as keeping Sanctuary available would be a better option.