[SPOILERS] It's a treehugger, not a facehugger... honest! - Sareln/Ljos/Tessa

[Sareln]

T55

36 BPT -14 GPT @ 100% Science

I should stop building warriors

Festivals in at the end of next turn, I have the gold to finish the research. Cities are on placeholder builds for markets (Granary in Rivendell, Monument in Gondolin, and Caras Galadhon just finished a warrior and will start on it's own monument next turn)

[Sareln]

[COLOR="Orange"]To the Peaceful Tom Bombadil,

I apologise for the delay in response. Times have been busy and your offer made me want to get some feedback from my Horde Advisors before pressing forward. I will also be totally honest and say I also wanted to have communication with our new Horselord Rival to better weigh your international presence. You are, after all, still holding yourself firmly at the top of the scoreboard even after the Vampires stole the Blood from the Cities.

I have not yet received a reply from the Horselord but I hope I will before our exchange comes to a close. You seem to want to draw us together and I would know not just how you would treat me... but also how you would treat the others. I haven't mentioned anything about our evolving talks. Yet. If we did draw up some arrangement would you want to keep it low-key or be upfront about it?

But let me cut to the chase. We both know that the first person you meet can turn into ones greatest enemy or most trusted ally. The land between us divides naturally and our talks are both interesting and amusing (well amusing on my end at least). The question is what level of co-operation you want? What level of openness, if any, between our two nations? I don't want to sign a long term deal that just allows you to build in peace while quietly directing the more Aggressive Horselords and Men of Bannor to my door. Nor, I am sure, Do you want a deal that allows me to swallow up all manner of rivals while leaving you a small nation just waiting to be slaughtered. Long term I hope to use my Warren doubled Settlers to make a huge land grab on this large map, Having a peaceful and dependable border would be helpful during that time, more so if that nation is both friendly and trusted.

The Reagents near Moria are 1SE of the Clams. Just on the other side of the mountain. It is a perfect city spot. Made all the more tempting because the eastern part of the mountain range appears to have ZERO resources. Meaning that any city placed there would be a cash drain. I do agree that the spot is closer to you then me, But it has such lush bounty and the potential deal we could draw up would leave it SAFELY in your hands for a long time. This is made worse by the large lack of commerce resources in my own land. I have an abundance of Grain and Animal resources that I will be able to eventually trade but little in Calendar ones.

You mention that you are willing to pay with "guarantees, gold, and/or resources" in exchange for the Moria site and a pleasant land division agreement. My personal view is that gold and resources are pedestrian compared to a guarantee from a man with the morals to uphold his word. Ideas that spring to mind are; some temple spreading late game, you researching the open borders technology so that we can have trade routes with each other etc. I'm sure I could demand more but that would darken our talks of a future working relationship wouldn't it.

Ravus, The Red Wizard

[/COLOR]

Paraphrasing:

1. Sorry for the delay, wanted to consult with my lurkers and get contact with Mr. Yellow before considering any deals. You're doing well enough that I need to be careful.
   
2. No reply from the Horselord yet. How do you want our agreements structured? Public or Private?
   
3. What level of cooperation are we talking about? We don't want to tie each other's hands, but I do want to leverage warren-settlers.
   
4. Location of the Reagents. I don't have many commerce resources, but plenty of grains and animals.
   
5. Gold and Resources are well and good but your word is worth something too.
   
6. Would like some temple spreads, open-borders/trade routes, etc.

[Sareln]

Alright, time to take a crack at answering Ravus.

Points I want to make:

1. Sorry for the Delay, was working on the EitB Mod
   
2. I don't need the confidentiality. If it would make you feel better, I will happily grant it
   
3. The Hippus are not being very responsive in general. While cordial, they aren't being very talkative
   
4. Let's start putting together some real things to start hanging a framework on.
   

[COLOR="Green"]Ravus,

My apologies for the delayed response, I've been putting most of my free (game) time towards getting the Erebus in the Balance mod prepped for release. Some folks wanted to actually *play* with it, so I felt obligated to scrub out some of the worst of my balancing mistakes.

I hope that you've managed to get some tidings out of Mr. Yellow at this point? He was perfectly friendly in his opening but he doesn't appear to be a very talkative character this time around. Perhaps he's trying a different tack after his diplomacy with Thoth in FfH PBEM III. Regardless, I've not heard anything new from him in some time now.

As to how closely I envision our nations working together, I think quite closely. I believe that we could both profit greatly from securing our mutual border and then being able to face outwards from there. As we move towards the mid and late game, any successful strategy will need to contend with the power of the vampires, a crusading bannor, or an unrushed Amurite. I don't know what you think about it, but I think our chances of doing well in that phase of the game could be dramatically improved by working together.

Let's start putting together a framework for Moria.

For starters, I don't need confidentiality clauses, generally. If such clauses would make you feel more comfortable signing such deals, I'd be happy to add them in. It might be prudent however, that if we agree on more longterm cooperative agreements beyond an NAP, settling agreement, and resource trades, that we keep the details of our full cooperation secret from the other players.

For Moria, I'm willing to offer 1 happy resource of your choice (incense or silks) and 1 health resource of your choice (wheat, pigs, deer), for the duration of our NAP. It should be possible to set up that trade as soon as we have a trade-route. This would be alongside a settling agreement that gives you the rest of the land south of the Moria site with one exception. There is another clam resource 3-West (Left) and 2-South (Down) of the clam from the Moria site. Is there land south of it that is able to claim it? If not, there is land North of it that I'd like to retain settling privileges over that I've named clam-point. It's a filler city, but a food resource and some coastal might be worth settling later on for shipbuilding purposes.

I would like to establish a bi-directional map-sharing compact. After either of us discovers cartography, we share maps every turn for the duration of our NAP. I am teching towards Fellowship of Leaves, so while your early scouting will be better than mine, once a handful of hawks and hunters are in play, I should bring more than enough map data to the table to compensate you for your early knowledge. We will open borders as soon as Cartography is researched. If we wish to trade maps with other players, we must consult with the other first.

For both of these two deals, I would like to attach an NAP until T160. To be honest, I view it as quite likely that we will end up extending it to T200 rather quickly if we both like the form of our early cooperation.

So to sum up:

1. NAP to T160
2. Moria and perhaps Clam Point to Sareln, Ravus gets everything south of that. Sareln will provide Ravus with his choice of one of (Incense, Silks) and one of (Pigs, Deer, Wheat) for the duration of the NAP.
3. Open Borders
4. Bi-directional map trades

How does that sound?

-Sareln-

[/COLOR]

[Sareln]

So who thinks I'm giving away the farm?

[Ilios]

So who thinks I'm giving away the farm?

Seems reasonable, if you want to be left alone.

[Sareln]

Seems reasonable, if you want to be left alone.

That would be the goal, yes.

Also I think that I can beat hyper-efficient massed units from the clan more easily than mass vampires, mages, or other nasties from either Calabim or Amurite. Since the map doesn't look like it's going to support a rush of any reasonableness, that means I need to start stacking the deck for the mid to late game. A great way to stack said deck is to find a friend .

[Sareln]

All quiet in the lands of the Elves.

[Sareln]

Message from the Orcs

[COLOR="Orange"]Delays are to be expected on matters of this magnitude, they need to be pondered properly, so don't worry overly about speed of response.

It is interesting that you have had only brief pleasurable conversation with our resident Horselord. He is acting quite differently in conversation with myself. Although we are two very different leaders with very different civilizations. He has provided information in regards to himself and the Bannor. Most importantly hinting that he suspects the Vampires to be to my west. Although with your own lack of contact I wonder how much truth and trust to place in his words.

With a suspected powerful nation hinted at being close to myself I do like the idea of having a safe border. I have far more fear of the Horselords then the Bannor. They will not be able to grow an abundance of cottages with this arid land, while the Horselords can perform well military wise on a large map with fast moving units. Meanwhile the Mages could be powerful if left alone and the Vampires are ALLWAYS a threat.

But onto Moria; The agreement of one Happy and one Health resource is a balanced agreement. But considering it Is you, not I, that is locked for certain between two nations I would like to ask that I am allowed to be the first to found both the Runes of Kilmorph and the Ashen Veil. I know that the Elves can get a lot from religion and that both of us would benefit from Ritualists for Ring of Fire spells. I don't know yet if you plan to make your armies into a arcane or divine one but for myself there is no question. I need these two religions and I suspect that you can do without having the Holy cities. I also suspect I could have demanded more if I had more Worg Riders, but your leap in the power graphs has been noticeable since you found out that you were between two aggressive nations. Your own expansion has also been on par with my own, although I missed exactly when your third city was founded, but I know you could rush settle Moria before I could due to it's closeness to your own land.

I do not mind seeding you the land of Clam-point. I do not need it and it would be more useful to yourself. The city I will found closest to you will be 4S & 1E of the Clams near Moria. I will probably wait until Warrens to found this city. It's only of negligible value but it is defend-able enough and a point to make a road to bridge our two nations. I'd estimate that it will take around 25 turns to found it. Maybe a little more. Will you have founded Moria by then so that we can link our roads up?

A Bi-directional map agreement could be useful. I definitely agree with needing to get confirmation before doing map trades with others. While we could trust each other with our maps while in a NAP others might not be so... kind. I still need to fire off my own worldspell for exploration once barbarians actually start appearing. I hadn't realised how late they appear without dungeons and spawn points.

We do need a NAP if we are going to be trading so much information and planning a land division. But even with a map this large T160 sounds too long. I would prefer something to around T125 with an agreement to revisit extending it once we get to turn 100. Like you say we will most likely find it easier and easier to extend if we find ourselves working well together.

Apart from those minor adjustments we find ourselves in agreement.

Ravus - The Red Wizard

PS have YOU seen any barbarian yet?[/COLOR]

Summary

• High Magnitude Deal -> Careful and Considered Response
  
• Hippus is being more forthcoming with Orcs than with Elves.
  
• Prioritizes Hippus over Banner in the threat matrix.
  
• Wants founding rights on RoK and Ashen Veil
  
• Wants to know ETA on Moria settlement (Next)
  
• Still needs to fire worldspell for scouting units
  
• NAP down to T125 w/ renewal talks at T100
  
• Have you seen any Barbs yet?

[Sareln]

Response

• High Magnitude Deal -> Careful and Considered Response (Sure, makes sense)
  
• Hippus is being more forthcoming with Orcs than with Elves. (Worrisome)
  
• Prioritizes Hippus over Banner in the threat matrix. (Fair enough, I hadn't thought to think about cottages being hindered)
  
• Wants founding rights on RoK and Ashen Veil (Sure, you give me founding rights to FoL though)
  
• Wants to know ETA on Moria settlement (maybe ~10 turns?)
  
• Still needs to fire worldspell for scouting units (makes sense, I haven't seen any barbs yet though...)
  
• NAP down to T125 w/ renewal talks at T100 (Sounds good)

I'll write that up into a reasonable sounding piece somewhat later.

[Sareln]

Let's go Fishing!

[COLOR="Green"]Looks like you made contact without too much trouble. How's everything in Hippus-land?

-Sareln-[/COLOR]