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Civilization 5 Announced

Sareln Wrote:I haven't actually. Do they really use CivBucks? Sigh...

Yeah. They don't work quite how you were suggesting, instead more like Serdoa was suggesting - you have to pay for them, and then in game you can spend them to get yourself an advantage. I should write up my thoughts on the game and why it's not for me sometime, but part of the not-for-me is definitely that spending money makes you more likely to win.
...wounding her only makes her more dangerous! nono -- haphazard1
It's More Fun to be Jack of All Trades than Master of One.
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pling Wrote:.....and then in game you can spend them to get yourself an advantage

[SNIP]

spending money makes you more likely to win.


And this, Ladies and Gentlemen is whats wrong with gaming and to some degree Society itself at this moment. It feels like you cannot just earn your way through things, money always needs to change hands before you can get going or there will always be someone else 2 steps ahead at the crutial moments.
Globally Lurking:
Unspoilt in all (at the moment)
Playing:

Finished:
PBEM 11: Hammurabi of England (Probably Last)
Pitboss 4: Wang Kon of Arabia (Finished 7th out of 8)

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pling Wrote:Yeah. They don't work quite how you were suggesting, instead more like Serdoa was suggesting - you have to pay for them, and then in game you can spend them to get yourself an advantage. I should write up my thoughts on the game and why it's not for me sometime, but part of the not-for-me is definitely that spending money makes you more likely to win.

Well you can just look at it like an auction where you bid real money for e-penis and a hollow sense of victory.lol
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
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That's basically called any of Zynga's games on facebook. Actually worked pretty well until they got too aggressive with spam posts.

Sareln Wrote:Free to play with microtransactions (the new hotness for publishers).

You earn Civ-Bucks (or Civ-Euros depending upon your localization) in a slow drip through playing and meeting certain milestones or building certain buildings (or it's like wealth and you can build it in your cities).

Disclaimer: I don't work for Firaxis, I just made this all up, and hopefully we'll never see anything like it.
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There has not been much activity. I have 2 more thoughts.

Civ5 does not apeal to anyone good because...

1. Poor mod support kicks out most of the modders.
2. MP sucks
3. Good players who can toleralte Inmoral on Civ4 will kill Civ5 on any diffaculty.
4. Good players who can not tolerate Inmotaral on Civ4 will kill EMP like its nothing. Due to the "level 2 diffaculty" glitch Inmoratl Civ5 is much worse.

I also found out what UBS Sirain refer to is. Its the uber-captail strat from Civ Rev. Making an Uber-captail is very natural so it is just very poor game balance. Just like ICS in CIV 1 , 2, 3, 5 it just feels right. Not doing it just feels painful for me these days.
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I actually reinstalled CIV V again this weekend to give it a whirl.

What is peculiar that I get the feeling they do not understand their own game.

After throwing out pretty much every social policy and replacing it with something else, they actually made 1 policy give a free settler in the liberty tree added to the +% build bonus.

Which results in only the mentally challenged players considering the +1 happiness /15% wonder bonus or the free 4 monuments bonus.

You want more cities and you want them fast. Thanks to a still very slow growth (wheat +1 food and now after a granary +2, yeahbanghead, why not without a granary) of your cities, you can only grow horizontically at a decent pace.

Anyone else gave it a whirl despite knowing it better?
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I haven't touched Civ5 since December, so I may well be full of everything that I'm going to write here. However, I have been keeping an eye on what's happening with the game's development. Since I have some time to kill here, I'll go through and outline the major current problems with the game's structure.

When Civ5 came out last year, there were all manner of problems with the gameplay. Roughly speaking though, they can be condensed into the following list:

* Mounted units were unkillably strong and would never die.
* Global happiness was inherently flawed. Players could expand infinitely and achieve unlimited gold/science/production.
* Unending expansion cluttered the map with units, leading to the infamous "carpet of death" phenomenon.

All of these issues were addressed in patches. Mounted units were overnerfed, and are now some of the weakest units in the game (iron units instead now overpowered). Happiness and expansion were nerfed again, again, and still again. Social policies were completely rewritten (multiple times), happiness was greatly reduced, cities forced to be placed 4 tiles apart instead of 3, and so on. The designers achieved their goal, killing off ICS and therefore removing the carpet of doom from the game.

However, in achieving their goal, the designers created gameplay that was just as bad as the original release, if not worse. The goal all along was to make it so that "small empires would be competitive with large empires." That goal has been achieved in Civ5: small or "vertical" empires are more or less equal in strength with large ("horizontal") empires. But this immediately reveals a crippling flaw for an empire-building game: if large empires are no stronger than small empires, then why build a large empire in the first place? Where is the incentive for growth, for expansion? Remember, in Civ5 happiness is handled globally; one additional pop point going from size 19 to size 20 in the capital has the same effect as going from size 1 to size 2 in a new city. With the happiness cap on so very, very tight in the early game, it's *FAR* more effective to grow population in a handful of cities rather than try to expand across the map. Since the main danger in Civ5 comes from early AI attacks (more in this in a minute) there's even further incentive to turtle up and defend what you have rather than expanding. Much safer that way.

So the result is a game where there's virtually no incentive to expand at all. Why would you? Vertical empires are stronger than horizontal empires until very late in the game, a late point that you'll never reach if you're playing the game correctly. This is due to the following game mechanics:

* National wonders are built on the silly "must have a library in EVERY city" mechanic. Fewer cities means you can build them. Expand and you can never build them. This is key for the overpowered early game National College.

* The AIs attack the human player rabidly in Civ5, and never stop attacking. You can never be friendly with them, and it's almost impossible to avoid war. Fewer cities makes it much easier to survive the inevitable war declarations. If you can survive the first 100 turns on Deity, the player has normally already won.

* Income in the early game comes from selling resources; your own city output has almost no impact. A small empire of 3 cities has fewer costs and can generate the same cash from resource sales.

* Research has almost nothing to do with your own cities. You have to clear the Ancient and Classical ages yourself (using National College normally), and after that most techs are cleared with Great Scientists and Research Agreements. Actual beaker count is almost irrelevant, because all the techs are obtained through waves of research agreements. Why bother to expand? You never actually research the techs. RAs and Scientists work just as well with 3 cities as with 30. The top players will clear the entire Industrial and Modern Ages in a single turn, using a wave of Research Agreements, taking untold thousands of magical beakers virtually for free. You can win by Spaceship on Deity with 3 or 4 cities as early as Turn 200. This is the single biggest flaw in the entire game, and it completely undermines the rest of the gameplay. Beaker production literally does not matter.

So now we have a game where expansion has almost no impact on the gameplay. Land means very little. There is no competition for resources, aside from possibly an early iron. Conflict feels completely artificial, driven by the insane aggression of the AIs and not natural real-world competition for good land or scarce resources. On difficulties below Deity, huge swaths of the land remain unsettled for ages on end, no one having the happiness or desire to claim them. There is one correct path to follow to achieve victory, based on the following general pattern: resource sales -> survive inevitable early AI war declarations -> take the correct social policites (Liberty into Rationalism) -> set up Research Agreement and Great Scientist chains -> hit Industrial and leap ahead to finish tech tree in one go, jumping past all AIs in the process. It's quite elegant and creative what the best players have done, but the fact remains that they are doing the same thing in every game. The one and only wildcard is how many times the AI attacks. Too many war declarations and the player just loses. So basically the "excitement" in the game comes down to a total crapshoot on how much you get attacked in the first 50 turns, keeping in mind that it's essentially impossible to make friends or influence diplomacy in any meaningful way. Wow, sounds like "fun" to me. rolleye

Anyway, there's a great thread on CivFanatics that discusses just how broken the Research Agreements are. Listen to Martin Alvito's posts, he has this game down to an exact science. Civ5's resident T-Hawk, if you will!
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Thanks for the summary of Civ V's current state; I wondered about that a couple of weeks ago but couldn't muster the strength to open the game...

Sullla Wrote:Listen to Martin Alvito's posts, he has this game down to an exact science. Civ5's resident T-Hawk, if you will!
He even has "Real men play SMAC" written under his avatar, so it must be T-hawk's long-lost twin!
There are two kinds of fools. One says, "This is old, and therefore good." And one says, "This is new, and therefore better." - John Brunner, The Shockwave Rider
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With all the pseudonyms flying around here lately, who can be sure of anything? lol
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You can not sign reasearch aggrements at all if you don't go tall. The AI will hate you for expanding too much and having a weak miltary for such a large empire and touching their borders. So you have to go domination if you don't go tall. It is still very possible on inmortal using the courthouse bug to mangae happnyness and pick piety. You sometimes have to use this statagey on small maps when there are not enough AI's to RA spam with. I dunno about Diety.

The only good ways to play this game is domination and going tall so you can use RAs. If it were not for the RA issue then you would see meso-empires that expand but do not conquest.
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