[SPOILERS - PBEM19] Huayna Capac of Ottomans - yuris125 & Maestro

[yuris125]

Well, in the first 2 turns of the war we lost 4 cities. Only 1 of them good, but it's not going well. Of course, the main purpose of the war was to not remain on sidelines when the real war starts. Seven has circumnav-boosted, Refrigeration-boosted ships, and Marines against which I can't stage counters yet. I won't be surprised if we lose more cities this turn, and I just pray Maximum (our main production centre and HE city) isn't be one of them. Next turn I finally will be able to upgrade defenders to Infantry and be safe for a moment

In better news, Seven pillaged Luddite's oil source last turn. Luddite is treating it as an act of war which nullifies their NAP, and told us he's going to attack T147, that's in 2 turns, 3 turns earlier than planned. Hopefully it will distract Seven from his rampage campaign in Radioland

[yuris125]

T146 - lost 4 more cities. Luddite is declaring next turn, but Seven plays before him, so he can wreak more havoc in my land before it happens. Although I finally upgraded my defences, hopefully infantries won't be so easy to break, and most (if not all) coastal cities now have at least 2

Apparently I can rebuild razed national wonders. Didn't know that. But it will only matter if I survive the war

[regoarrarr]

Apparently I can rebuild razed national wonders. Didn't know that. But it will only matter if I survive the war

Yeah that happened to me in PB1 - I had my Heroic Epic nuked once and razed once

[yuris125]

Yeah that happened to me in PB1 - I had my Heroic Epic nuked once and razed once

Heh, that's cruel! Fortunately our HE is still alive

Anyway, I'm in a situation now. Seven just came up in chat, and offered an unconditional peace. I understand why he's doing this: he surely knows Commodore is attacking him next turn, and he would prefer not to worry about attacks from me

Of course, if I pull out of the war, it will be bad for Luddite and Commodore. They're definitely counting on Seven keeping some defences against me. On the other hand, I can't do more than make him maintain those defences. I can't get to any of his cities in 1 turn, and if I leave Galleons in open sea, they will surely die to Destroyers/Battleships. The fact that Seven has circumnav boost, and Refrigeration boost, as well as Nav1 and even Nav2 promotions on his ships doesn't help either. He can reach almost any point of the map in 1 turn with his ship. The only thing I can do against it is send throngs of Galleons, hoping that he doesn't have enough ships to sink them all. Doesn't sound like a good idea

On the other hand, the question of what I can do if I take peace is a tricky one. I lost 8 or 9 cities to Seven's attacks. Most of them can be rebuilt, of course, the question is - can I really recover enough to achieve something in the game? Last turn I started a GA, and in a GA, I was only getting 850 bpt. For this stage of the game, it's pathetic. Especially when I'm the full industrial era behind everyone in tech

On the third hand, when I'm so much behind in tech, can I really do anything when at war? Even if I could reach Seven's cities, Cavalries amphibiously attacking Marines wouldn't be very successful. If I had a 1:2 win:loss ratio, I'd be lucky. And of course, any Cavalry which would retreat and survive would remain on a ship, which Seven would surely sink on his turn. So at best, I'm looking at razing a city per 9 Cavalries (3 Galleon loads), more likely a city per 12 Cavalries. This is just too high a price

So, once again, I don't know what to do

[Bobchillingworth]

Well... do you envision actually winning the game now that you're down 9 or so cities? Will an NAP of any length give you time to compete with the leading civ? I haven't been following this game very closely, but your situation looks grim no matter what you do. Be prepared to feel like crap if you sell out your allies, though. Nobody ever takes that sort of situation well.

[yuris125]

Well, I'm definitely not signing peace without talking to my allies. Will post some of our correspondence later (Gmail blocked at work, IT guys say it's unintentional, but aren't doing anything about it )

[yuris125]

Oh, and I agree the situation is grim, but with almost all cities being coastal, those nations with modern ships can raze them all in a serious war. Then I will be the largest empire on earth with 9 cities

[yuris125]

Well, Luddite lost his Moai/Ironworks city (the one I hoped to raze just 30 turns ago), and says he's ready to give up. Talked to Commodore, and we decided he can do more damage with my units than I can. So I offered peace to Seven this turn, and am moving units to gift to Commodore. In my own land, I will build Research/Wealth, and see if I manage to pull off a cultural victory somehow. Unless we decide to concede the game, of course

[yuris125]

Looks like Commodore is going down. I switched to US/Free Speech/Caste System/State Property/Pacifism, in a feeble attempt to get cultural victory. But I think Ranamar/Seven will get to dom much faster. Seven said he captured Luddite's oil and Commodore's uranium, so neither of them can build modern units now, Commodore can't even build ships. I don't see how RL7 can lose now

[yuris125]

Well, now that Commodore pledged to vote for Ranamar should he build the UN, it's clear that the game is going to end in a UN victory by either Ranamar or Commodore. All that's left for me is to move units around while they're rushing to the UN, and write a postmortem

So, why did Maestro and I lose the game?

We were off to a good start by building the Oracle. At the moment, I have doubts whether delaying the 3rd city to get the Oracle earlier was a mistake. I'm very curious how much behind RL7 were. Even if it was a mistake, I don't think it was a big one

However, I feel we relaxed after winning the Oracle race, and that's what caused us to fall behind. The main reasons are:

* Slow expansion. We were constantly behind others in city count, and kept saying "well, that's ok, we have the Oracle though". The Oracle doesn't win games by itself!
* Failure to capitalise on the Oracle. In spite of getting early cheap forges, we never were leaders in production
* Not enough Workers. When we traded maps and saw other players' land, it was humiliating how much underdeveloped our land was. Yes, we never worked unimproved tiles, but we were delaying growth to avoid it!
* Undervaluing seafood. The first city which utilised seafood, Echo of Moscow, was founded around T70. I believe this is the main reason why we were last in crop yield all the time
* Poor scouting. Yes, we had some bad luck with barbs, but we were always thinking there was something more important to build than exploratory units. As a result, we didn't find our gems, which were 5 tiles away from the capital, until T42!
* Failure to capitalise on the UB. At all times during the game, we were below the happy and health caps, which means those Hammams were next to useless

So, I believe we had an excellent start, but a very poor early middle game. Once we realised we were falling behind, we had to start taking gambles (like early Nationalism in an attempt to steal Taj). After none of these gambles paid off, we were destined to lose

Well, this game was supposed to be learning experience, and I certainly learned a lot! Look forward to checking out RL7's thread though, I suspect Ranamar learned even more from having two outstanding players on his team Yes, I'm a little jealous. And of course, regardless of how the UN race ends, the game was won by Seven. Well, hopefully I'll have my revenge in PBEM23!