Werewolf 7 game thread

[Meiz]

I have some niggling doubts about Meiz as well. In fact, he may belong on my top 4 list, thinking about it. Part of me thinks he has been focusing a bit too exclusively on the Scooter theory, without really trying all that hard to convince anyone of anything. If Meiz turns out to be a wolf I would be more inclined to suspect Scooter as well. The early accusations from Meiz seem like a classical distance-building move to me.

Ouch, not sure what more I can do on the issue... I bet none of you want me to repeat the reasons I find scooter suspicious . I'm trying to get my top two suspects on the line (scooter next to TT), and I'm doing my best to convince everyone. It's apparent that I'm not very good at convincing...

I've got scooter and TT pegged as quite likely wolves and then it gets complicated to me. I'm very inclined to put Jkaen in the wolf category just because of this (like you said as well just now). If I'd have to make a decision on the fourth wolf right now, it would probably be Sareln. The reason is that both scooter and TT are pushing for your lynch (scooter is a bit more discreet in this). I doubt that wolf-Catwalk (odd combination..) would push for the same target too. This is of course assuming that I'm right on scooter and TT.

[Sareln]

Yeah, that was part of the joke

Seems like he had some copy/paste errors during making of the notes, and I'd guess they are somehow related to FFH mod.

Whoops .

[Serdoa]

I found uberfish's and Erebus's play suspicious and I'm clearly not the only one, looking at the comments and votes cast on these two. I agree that uberfish's accusations against zak reminded a lot of the way he played in WW5 as a wolf. And uber attacked Zak and ignored TT, despite that they both did the same thing.

What has anything of what you wrote to do with what I accused zak of? I mean sorry Meiz, but yes, Erebus and uberfish played suspicious. And uberfish did attack zak and ignored TT. But it was never my point that they did not. My point was that zaks play was inconsistent. That he accused people 3 times for things he himself did exactly the same way.

Erebus's play is probably in fresh memory for everyone, some seriously suspicious stuff there as well. So I can't blame Zak for doing things I'd do in his shoes as well. I do think Zakalwe has provided credible and open explanations for his play so far.

Things zak did:

- proposed the "lynch all liars, even if villagers"-policy
- proposed the "vig kill uberfish"-plan, despite that making NO sense at all when you take 5 minutes to think it through
- accused TT for doing the same thing he himself did
- lied by stating he concluded that uberfish can't be a villager, when he did propose the "lynch all liars, even if villagers"-policy (and therefore concluded that uberfish could be a villager)
- stated that uberfish can't be a wolf and still voted for him later, completely ignoring what he himself wrote
- wrote posts 72 and 185 where 72 agrees that painting uberfish as an untrustworthy villager would be a wolfish thing to do and 185 is painting uberfish as an untrustworthy villager

And thats only a small part of stuff what zak did what he can't explain because it is either simply anti-villagerish or it is an inconsistency in his play. I don't damn zak for voting uberfish and Erebus. I damn zak for playing like a wolf.

[Roland]

I'm honestly a little surprised I'm catching so much flak for explaining my stance on zakalwe.

Maybe that's because it's not (or not just) your stance on zakalwe, but your stance on how to be a Villager. At least that's my reasons. Frankly I don't care much that you've turned about face on zakalwe - others have voiced my sentiments for me before I got the chance - and as I've said, you'd have to be a 'Wolf with way more arrogance than brains to be pulling what you're doing, so I don't suspect you much at the moment. If we're all still here in 2 days, you included, maybe I'll change my mind about that, but for now I think it'd be a waste going after you.

I'd like to ask this of everyone:

A: zakalwe hangs and is a wolf. Who do you think this clears, and who do you think it casts suspicion on?
B: zakalwe hangs and is a villager. Same questions.

Also, noone seems to be commenting on the vigilante claim. I still think a confirmed innocent is worth more to us than to the wolves.

I gave my comments on the Vigilante - don't do it unless you're the one getting lynched.

A: It doesn't clear or cast suspicion on anyone, as far as I can tell - although I won't truly know until it happens. On its own, though, it's almost meaningless - except to give credence to the idea that he's the pack leader, and has been covering for the inactives, but that's a stretch on its own.
B: I'd say it clears Serdoa once and for all. Maybe Injera, too. Basically, it would help clear some obvious innocents anyway. As for incriminating anyone? Probably you most of all Catwalk. Don't know much beyond that.

Bottom line: whatever zakalwe's alignment I don't see it telling us much at all about who to lynch next. We still won't know anything more than we do now about any of the people we know very little about (Jkaen, Sareln, Twinkletoes). So even in that sense I don't see it being worth lynching zakalwe if it's only to try to clear or incriminate someone else. If people honestly believe he's a 'Wolf, though - well then, by all means lynch him. I just don't think he is, personally.

Has he really been emotional, upset, and angry, though?

If I am to point to one single thing about TT, I think his post where he tries to discredit me by implying that I am to blame for Rowain and MNG's deaths is pretty suspicious. (I quoted it earlier.)

Regarding Twinkletoes: no, he hasn't been as emotional in the past. He's also explicitly stated why that is the case - not at the beginning of the game, which would be mildly suspicious IMO, but just recently. He got too emotionally involved during WW1, and he's trying to avoid that this time around. I can empathize whole-heartedly (WW2 really cut me down; ask Lewwyn, Luddite, Kyan, Gaspar, any of those). I heard the voice he spoke those words in, and I believe it to be honest. Call me blind to my own emotional bias, but I stand behind my beliefs.

As for you being blamed for Rowain's and Mr. Nice Guy's deaths, I think that's grasping at straws trying to frame you, or at least tick you off a little. I could see Rowain, actually, as that was my initial thoughts regarding the Vigilante kill - someone who was trying to get on your good side, or found it offensive that Rowain went after you without much "evidence" to back up his hostility, took it upon themselves to do something about it. You specifically laid out the idea for the Vigilante to kill uberfish, which I thought was a) wasteful, and b) suspicious (if anyone other than you was saying it, anyway), so I can see someone trying to blame you for putting the idea out there about using the Vigilante shot. There's no DIRECT ties to you and Rowain / Mr. Nice Guy that I can see, but I don't think like everyone else (obviously), and I try (and sometimes fail) not to let personal vendettas get in the way of my playing.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts on the matter. I don't know who the Vigilante is, and I don't care. They should stay hidden until absolutely necessary IMO: that's always been the general rule of thumb in the past, and I haven't heard a convincing argument as to why we should change that now.

[Serdoa]

I remember that day pretty vividly .

Can you point me to where he's shown that kind of anger/emotion though? I haven't seen it or don't remember it, but it's very possible I've missed it... But I've actually been expecting that exact type of emotion and thought it was noteworthy that I have NOT seen it. (not arguing here - trying to find out if I missed it somewhere - I just dont remember it)

scooter, I might have misformulated that. He did not get as angry as back then (and I would be more then surprised if he would, because ... well, back then was something completely different), but since then I think I can sense him being angry. And his posts here do surely give me that feeling. It is only a feeling so if you don't have it, don't give anything about it, it was mainly meant to explain why I feel the way I do.

[Twinkletoes89]

Here we go again...

It also highlighted a TT post that has bothered me all game - where TT said it was worthwhile to lynch uberfish even if he was a villager. That's anti-village.

Its not anti-village and I stick by exactly what I said. Do you believe that uberfish would have ever been able to get past his gambit which got him lynched? People would have kept using it against him until they succeeded to get him lynched and the longer it lasted, the worse the mislynch would likely have turned out to be. Also, zak said exactly the same thing though I seem to be hit for it more often.

Has he really been emotional, upset, and angry, though?

If I am to point to one single thing about TT, I think his post where he tries to discredit me by implying that I am to blame for Rowain and MNG's deaths is pretty suspicious. (I quoted it earlier.)

Bullshit. I have been pissed off no end by people's early aspersions that I was using my busy-ness as some kind of cover and being a 'martyr'. I could stay angry with quite a few people who keep going on about my silence as if its tactical, but I've got a million better things to do and this game is one of the least important things that make up my day.

You're last line has made my mind up though zakalwe. You are twisting my words yet again. My only implication of you being responsible for those deaths is by calling you a wolf. I mentioned them because you do have 'favourites' that you always seem to suspect regardless and with them both dead, I was having some 'gallows humour' that your vote was inevitably falling on me.

Every single post you seem to be making just seems off and its becoming more and more pronounced. I would be stunned if you are innocent.

[Injera]

First, thanks for responding Serdoa. In retrospect my post last night was a bit angrier than I would have liked, but I was I was legitimately insulted that you would yell at the village (which includes me) when you appeared to be ignoring me.

Back to your question: My thoughts are that zak could not only pull that off as a wolf but also that he would do it simply for the fact that otherwise he would get suspected from EVERYONE who ever played with him or read a game in which he played.

Let me be a bit more specific with my question: if zakalwe is a werewolf then he has 3 accomplices than can act to take pressure off of him. Why would they leave him hanging at the top of landslides two days in a row? Not that all 3 would act in concert, but I think they would have tried to give him some kind of out?

Tangentially, if zakalwe is a werewolf who do you think are his likely packmembers?

I can't remember that I ever called anyones thoughts unoriginal? Did I really do that? If so I apologize. I did ignore your thoughts and suspicions though, I admit that. But please take into account what I wrote above about zak. I myself did not suspect him all that much. Day 1 gave me a pause but only after Day 2 and that exchange with scooter it was finally enough to have me really looking into that case.

For reference, see your post here and my response here. I fully admit this is probably my ego talking, but if you're developing a suspicion on zakalwe why not look at what other people are saying too? If I said I was becoming suspicious of scooter wouldn't you find it unusual if I then said I discounted Meiz?

I'm am defending TT. I admit that openly. I will defend Sareln as well. Not because they can't necessarily be wolves. But because the cases against them are weak when the case against zak is strong and we can't afford a mislynch. And I honestly feel that we have a much higher chance to mislynch when we lynch one of TT, Sareln, scooter then when we lynch zak.

(And btw: I know that this contradicts completely my post from Day 2 to go for the quiet people. But we would have had to do that yesterday already, now it is getting to late with not enough mislynches left so that I feel that we have to lynch the strongest case first. And that in my opinion is zak.)

The thing is, even if you think the strongest case might be against zak a large number of the village did express interest in going the quiet route. You said:

Oh, and I am sure on scooter now as well. I just have to find time to present my findings. His posts are... very insightful if you know what to look for (hint: *).

Ignoring the asterisk thing, you were certain scooter is guilty. There are certainly votes out there for him; he got 5 votes last time around, of which 4 of those came in the final 15 minutes or so. The entire village wasn't even around for the switch and I can't imagine I'm the only one that was averse to making a late switch without more of an explanation. So there's a real possibility getting him lynched today, and a bunch of people said at the start of the day we'd prefer to look at the quieter members. Why not try to work with on that issue?

I guess the issue I'm having is that you seem very eager to say, "These werewolves are going to have a flawless win, they're amazing, I'm getting eaten tonight, only I see the truth and you are all blind" but I don't get the feeling you're actually trying to work with the other villagers to help win. I don't mean that in a malicious way; I think you might just be feeling hopeless right now and that's causing you to separate yourself from the village and miss out on chances to find common ground.

[Serdoa]

I would like to answer one (unasked) question: Why do I go for zakalwe today when we have 3 other wolves to catch as well?

I do it for the same reason why the wolves would go for villager-zak first nearly every time in a game. Because he can lead a village, he can get people following him and it is nearly impossible to lynch him.

As for Jkaen: He hasn't voted Day 2 and it doesn't seem he will Day 3, so he will be mod-killed anyway. No sense to go for him imo.

[Meiz]

I know you're not going to like this answer, but simply don't have excess time to defend Zakalwe. I believe he is capable to answer to these accusations by himself (and has already addressed some of them). But especially this part seems really unfair:

- stated that uberfish can't be a wolf and still voted for him later, completely ignoring what he himself wrote

There was a quite wide gap between these posts. People can and will change opinions as the game progresses. I think the first was his instant reaction to uberfish's post and second was a comment way later, after uberfish had acted suspiciously?

And some more fuel to my scooter/TT theory. First time scooter even mentioned TT was in post #659. This is the guy who has been major part of discussions since the beginning of the game.

[Serdoa]

Let me be a bit more specific with my question: if zakalwe is a werewolf then he has 3 accomplices than can act to take pressure off of him. Why would they leave him hanging at the top of landslides two days in a row? Not that all 3 would act in concert, but I think they would have tried to give him some kind of out?

I am not sure we use landslide in the same way here honestly. For me it is what happend on Day 1 with uberfish, having the most votes by a few, so that there is no doubt on the lynch. I don't feel we had a landslide on Day 2.

But anyway, I think your question is simply why would the other wolves not make it easier for zak, in whatever way they could come up with? I think it would not make sense. Apart from you I think nobody suspected zak for being involved or starting these lynchings. Look at Rolands post for an example. Everyone would get suspected if he does ask for a vig-kill like zak did. Only zak does not get suspected for it because he is zak. Similarly with the bandwagons on lynchees. That is what is expected from zak, not something to suspect him for. Honestly, if it would be for the bandwagons and being the one to call the lynching, I would not suspect zak.

Tangentially, if zakalwe is a werewolf who do you think are his likely packmembers?

See my post above about whom I am unsure about right now. Though I have to be honest, I would have to do much work to go through the thread and see what happened and how people interacted with zak. I have not had enough time for that yet.

Ignoring the asterisk thing, you were certain scooter is guilty.

Not exactly. I was later more suspicious of him then of Erebus (to late unfortunately and basically partly because of Erebus wish to see scooter right next to him) but at that time, I wrote it like that simply to get an answer for that asterisks thing, as it was clear he does something unusual. My bad for even going that route btw, I have never thought that through far enough.

There are certainly votes out there for him; he got 5 votes last time around, of which 4 of those came in the final 15 minutes or so. The entire village wasn't even around for the switch and I can't imagine I'm the only one that was averse to making a late switch without more of an explanation. So there's a real possibility getting him lynched today, and a bunch of people said at the start of the day we'd prefer to look at the quieter members. Why not try to work with on that issue?

I explained above why I'd rather go for zakalwe. I admit though that you are right here, it would probably be quiet easy to go for scooter and get him lynched. Maybe a little too easy even?

I would really need to look much more into the reasons why he is suspected and what really happened and tbh I simply had not the time after having to go through zaks posts to even get that evidence together to present it (and nobody would otherwise even listen to accusations of zak, you've seen it for yourself - heck, I myself would not do it without overwhelming indications).

I guess the issue I'm having is that you seem very eager to say, "These werewolves are going to have a flawless win, they're amazing, I'm getting eaten tonight, only I see the truth and you are all blind" but I don't get the feeling you're actually trying to work with the other villagers to help win. I don't mean that in a malicious way; I think you might just be feeling hopeless right now and that's causing you to separate yourself from the village and miss out on chances to find common ground.

Well, I hope we won't let them have a flawless victory but you are right that I am a little bit frustrated. Though I think my work with zaks posts shows that I want to work with the other villagers. Because honestly, it would have been much easier to say "I know it better, but you wouldn't believe me anyway, so whatever, I'll simply give up". And trust me, in PBEMs I am getting accused for acting exactly like that.

Tbh I also have to say that I am not thinking that zak is a mislynch (I think his comment about being exasperated by me is another tell of him being a wolf - it is the easiest way to discredit me, by simply stating that and therefore he doesn't have to even acknowledge my accusations nor - god forbid - defend against them). So, obviously pushing for the one player I am certain on being a wolf seems for me to make the most sense. Especially as all other called wolf-suspects are such easy lynch-targets that you'd even get them lynched when all wolfs are still left, have the mayor and only 5 villagers are left.