[SPOILERS] Isabella of Carthage, starring Ellimist, SleepingMoogle, and Nicolae

[Nicolae Carpathia]

I vote Moogle does it, some variation of "jesus what have my idiot teammates done now?"

[Ellimist]

Sent the following to NH:

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]It may be too late for our teams to salvage the relationship we had, but I have to at least make an attempt. Clearly, you feel that my settlement plans were unfair to your team, despite the fact that you waited nearly 20 turns longer than we did to found an inner-coastal city. Based on your apparent lack of interest in settling the center, I assumed that it was not a very high priority for you.


My intent was never to antagonize you; if it had been, I would have been far sneakier and less straightforward about it. I really can't even see how I could have been more fair to you, except perhaps reserving part of the land for you. It doesn't look like even that would be acceptable to you, as we haven't even planted the cities yet and you haven't even asked us not to.


I believe I've demonstrated a willingness to be reasonable with you in the past, yet you react as though I've committed some major betrayal or backstab. This apparent change in your attitude towards us indicates that you aren't even interested in resuming anything resembling amicable relations. Surely you are aware that an offensive war between us would be quite impossible after we spend 18 turns building up for it, so I can only conclude that you intend to attack us earlier than that.


So... Right now it looks like you're preparing to attack me, despite an agreement not to, because of an action I haven't even taken yet. This is, apparently, despite my efforts to be straightforward about it and to be fair to you in the process. It was never my intention to cause such a rift between us, and if there's something I can do to restore our previous level of cooperative friendship, I invite you to ask.

Ellimist[/COLOR]

Yes, I'd rather chicken out and give them a city site or two instead of fighting a war over a play that will take dozens of turns to really pay off. If they can be satisfied, my preferred course of action is to build up a decent military anyway but send it south. I doubt NH would mind if we took Kuro down a peg or two.

[SleepingMoogle]

I vote Moogle does it, some variation of "jesus what have my idiot teammates done now?"

I think it was that followed by 'wait, they actually went through with it as well?' We don't have anywhere close to the Workforce to make those cities anything but a maintenance drain for a very long time.

If we manage to salvage this by letting NH settle 'his' part of the island, it would be a major coup. But having some experience with Lewwyn (and the apprentice game 18 having finished now so this is no longer potential spoiler knowledge), I would not be surprised in the slightest if he is pressuring NH to go to war regardless of what we're offering them. I kind of doubt either of them will fall for that message, but let's pray we can buy them off.

But yes, build military and fast. We should get at least Construction for Catapults, but I would seriously consider HBR for Horse Archers as well. Machinery is probably too expensive a tech once all those island cities start going up and eating maintenance.

[Ellimist]

Construction hasn't been started yet, but we can afford to go 100% for 4 turns and get it. If they're going to attack, I see them doing it as soon as they can build up enough force. If we have 18 turns to fortify Arcturus and build cats and triremes, they won't have a chance to really make any true gains.

[Ellimist]

Okay, NH responded with what we expected, and I'm trying to defuse his outrage by agreeing with him. It's not really that hard to see things his way here, so I'm giving contrition a shot. If sincere humility and empathy doesn't get him to come to the table, I don't know what will.

[COLOR="Sienna"]Here's what you said.

ellimistbeyond: how about this
to help you prioritize whether to settle the coast next
1:09 AM
we'll tell you about any resources on the island that are visible from a workboat if they are east of the meridian
and we won't settle east of the meridian at least until we've settled west of it
1:10 AM
so if it's worthwhile to race to it, you'll know it as soon as we do, and you'll be likely to get there first
me: hmm
all right
that sounds reasonable

I'm sure the whole of two turns when we got any real information on the center island really helped us decide whether the center island is valuable or not. Oh! Did I mention that in those two turns, you already had a settler in position to block us off?

How you can say what you did was not sneaky considering you built eight settlers and stored them all up to plant a bunch of cities before anyone can react or even blink? What other purpose does that have other than to hide the fact that you're claiming the entire island? If you thought it wouldn't be a contentious issue then why would you do this?

I've said REPEATEDLY that "I hope you will not block us off" and every time you deflected the statement. If that indicates a lack of interest in the center to you, then what else can I say?[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]That does put things in a better perspective. If I'd paused for a reality check rather than getting caught up in planning a grand, ill-advised, settler push, it would have been obvious how you'd react. Clearly I remembered what I wanted to remember and believed what I wanted to believe. If you'd like to hear excuses and rationalizations(I doubt it), I have plenty.

If you think your best course of action is one of hostility, then so be it. If you indeed wait until T118, I have zero doubt that we would have enough forces to hold off you and Kuro both. If you attack sooner, I still don't think you could get very far, but it's harder to say for sure. So that option is available but we both know it's hard to attack against Cats and win.

If not, then I'm open to considering whatever proposal you think would be fair. If my intent had been to self-destruct diplomatically, I wouldn't be writing this.

Ellimist[/COLOR]

[Ellimist]

Okay, finally sent turn 101 onward.

Some further reflections on the current situation. I really don't think we're the only ones being unreasonable. Seriously, I don't.



NobleHelium/Lewwyn:

What exactly have we done to merit such a reaction? I know we planned to do something, but we haven't actually done it yet, have we? Have they even said anything along the lines of "please don't do that"?

Every player in this game expects Kuro and NH to each end up with a big chunk of Jkaen's land, by settlement and/or conquest. We probably won't. So what if I didn't reserve other land for them that they haven't made any move toward claiming. We wanted it enough to settle it, they didn't.

It does bother me that Noble took this so badly. He seems like a great guy and I enjoyed chatting with him. I guess I did lie repeatedly by omission. I would like to be fair to him, but if he doesn't want to deal at this point, forget it. Only one team is going to end up winning, and if we can't secure some advantages peacefully this way we'd have to end up fighting for them anyway.

So... yeah. I don't mind apologizing to Noble, and trying to clear the air between us, but if that isn't enough for him, tough. We're not in this to try to help another team win, and he already has some inherent advantages over every other team on the map.

If NH's proposed terms aren't reasonable, and we can't arrive at any that are, then fine, we'll deal with it. As far as I'm concerned, no actual "harm" has been done to his team yet, we have nothing to atone for, beyond the possibility of not settling some sites that would have been expensive for us anyway.




Kuro:

As far as the center island is concerned, he made a series of contradictory claims. He initially said that he'd have been okay with an east/west split, where we got the entire west side. I pointed out that Vega would have been okay under that arrangement. He didn't really know how to respond to that. I asked what would be acceptable to him moving forward, everything he proposed was retracted as soon as I opted to consider it. The only thing we really accomplished with the sham "negotiation" was wasting my time, but that was probably all he truly wanted anyway.

He says that he's expected us to attack him from the start, and considers us fools for trying to befriend him instead. I still can't completely wrap my head around his bizarre logic here. I guess we're better off with him as a confirmed enemy than a presumed friend.



So, I hope this post is at least halfway coherent. I think we can work a deal with NobleHelium, but if he wants to be ridiculous, forget it.

Trying to understand where we might find common ground with Kuro is a sanity-reducing exercise. Kuro wouldn't actually want whatever he would claim to want. So... yeah, I really don't see any great reason to keep attempting to reconcile with him.



EDIT:

So I've been trying to figure out why I can be such a jerk to players that I consider to be friends(NH). The best explanation I can come up with is that I used to play a lot of RISK face to face with my friends(especially my church youth group) while in highschool. The way we played it, RISK is a ruthless game. The first time I found out I had trusted the wrong person, it was tough. Before long, I realized that it was just the way that the game was, and it was foolish to look at things deeper than that. Eventually, we all knew which players were the most likely to lie or betray, but even then, the situation was sometimes such that they should be trusted anyway. I learned that even if I knew someone would not betray me, it was still foolish to leave myself exposed.

Now, I know Civilization is not RISK. But some of the basic principals of trust and cooperation are similar, and there's only one winner at the end of either game. I guess within that context, an "anything I can get away with within the rules" mentality takes over for me. Eventually, one person/team is going to win and everybody else isn't.


EDIT EDIT:
Holy cow, I can write far too much about essentially nothing. No wonder a style like Locke's was so popular.

[Ellimist]

Kicking the hornets' nest:

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Let's discuss things in an actual chat, instead of this email back-and-forth.

I don't mind apologizing for being inconsiderate, or for lying through omission, but so far that's all you can legitimately accuse me of. I planned to do something, you (sort of) objected, and I haven't done it(yet). I told you the full extent of the settlement plans before we placed even one city on the east side of the island. Due to your concerns, we still haven't. In fact, I haven't done a single thing yet that will inconvenience you in the least.

I'd like to mend relations with you, but if we don't work out something very soon, I don't expect it to happen at all. If we're going to be your enemies, we'll just plant our cities where we please. Please don't mistake remorse and patience for weakness or cowardice.

Ellimist[/COLOR]

I haven't sent it yet. They sent us another "we'll respond later" after my last message(nearly 24 hours ago), and there's been activity on their thread both last night and this morning. We need to know whether to found eastern center cities, and the glacial pace of communications seems almost deliberate. If possible, I'd like things to be decided one way or another before we play the next turn.

Any thoughts, Nicolae/SM?



EDIT: I rewrote the proposed message, made it more to the point and less repetitive.

[Ellimist]

I sent the email from the previous post.

I think our best move is to go for 4-5 cities on the west half of the island. The other players can collectively get the other half. If Noble demands more than that, tough. We aren't exactly in the right here but we're not really in the wrong either.

I'm uncertain what to do with the south half of the island. It might be best to see how far Kuro will go. We can prepare to remove Karkat from the equation, but leave its actual fate in his hands. 3-6 triremes ought to be enough to handle whatever he comes up with.

[Ellimist]

[Ellimist]

So we ended up with:

• The specifics of this deal are not to be disclosed to Kuro/Jkioan.
  
• We're founding the southern 2 Elemental cities and Noble is gifting 2 settlers to us at Arcturus within 5-7 turns. The third one he'll settle whenever it's convenient for him, in the location marked.
  
• The cities we intend to transfer will be transferred whenever NH chooses. Probably very soon because they have nearly completed the Hanging Gardens.
  
• We're giving him one of our galleys in exchange for one of his workers.
  
• If one of us gets two copies of a resource on the island, and the other doesn't get it some other way, the resource will be shared.
  
• Current non-aggression agreement is extended through the end of T136.

We consider this to be pretty solid, but some of the finer details still need to be figured out and NH wants to look it over when it's not after midnight as well. I won't repost the entire chat, it was quite long and in several different pieces. Here's some of the more amusing parts from the start:

[START OF DISCUSSION]
Ellimist: I think we can both agree that I overreached
NobleHelium: Yeah I think so
Ellimist: But on the other hand, I'd say that you overreacted
NobleHelium: I'm curious what the lurkers posted in your thread tbh
NobleHelium: Because I think the lurkers would agree with me
Ellimist: Ha, they said I pink dotted the entire world
NobleHelium: Well it certainly comes off as pink dotting the whole world

NobleHelium: And as I said before, I appreciate that you were going to plant in our quadrant last
NobleHelium: The point is that you scouted with settlers
NobleHelium: That kind of defeats the purpose of giving me scouting information

NobleHelium: Anyway I don't think we're asking for much of anything at all, since I don't think you can afford all of the cities
Ellimist: You haven't asked for anything!
NobleHelium: Well that's partially because it doesn't seem like you've asked for anything
Ellimist: Ummm
NobleHelium: I'm used to asking for something in return for something else
Ellimist: "Please let us bankrupt ourselves by planting 8 cities on the jungle covered center island"
NobleHelium: Seriously though
Ellimist: Now you can make a counter offer
NobleHelium: Okay
NobleHelium: Bankrupt yourselves planting five or six cities on the jungle covered center island
Ellimist: lmfao
Ellimist: 4-5 is more realistic tbh

Ellimist: Btw I am surprised you guys would be willing to break the NAP over something like that
NobleHelium: Never have I said that we would do that
Ellimist: But I blame Lewwyn for that
Ellimist: You didn't say it, but attacking us with 18 turns warning would be completely pointless and we both know it
NobleHelium: I dunno
Ellimist: So either you weren't going to negotiate and you weren't going to attack
Ellimist: Or you were going to attack while we were vulnerable
NobleHelium: Well I didn't think it was negotiable
Ellimist: Once we have the Cats, it's pointless
NobleHelium: You were very matter-of-fact in your statements
NobleHelium: "We will be planting turn after next most likely"
Ellimist: Yeah that's how I try to say stuff. Often it saves time.
NobleHelium: Oh sure
NobleHelium: But it definitely looked non-negotiable
Ellimist: Yeah sorry about that
Ellimist: You seemed all blindsided
NobleHelium: I certainly felt that way
Ellimist: Moogle was like... "wait you guys actually went through with your crazy plan?"
NobleHelium: lol

This does leave Kuro out entirely, but eh, I gave him a chance and he wasn't interested. We'll see if his attitude changes over the next several turns.

Early on, I decided that I wouldn't try to get the southern Incense city. I'm pretty sure we could have gotten it, but it's not that great compared to the other sites and it's one of the most vulnerable. None of the Elemental cities are located on hills, despite me telling him where the hills were located.

Oh, and if they delay the Hanging Gardens because the settlers aren't quite in place yet(I'm not sure where I left them), and they end up losing it as a result, we pay them 100 gold. This is so we don't tip off Kuro/Jkaen to whip it out faster or something. This wasn't extortion, it was my idea to ease Lewwyn's paranoia. I am 99% sure Kuro is not building it and I don't see an aqueduct in any of Jkioan's cities.

I did veto several particulars NH wanted, for example he wanted to put a city 3E4S of Arcturus. I said flat out that this would result in more cross-border BFC overlap than we would accept, (given that we had sacrificed for the sites and the military to hold them). On the other hand, I tried to move our border city north of Arcturus to the grass hill, and that was similarly impossible.

I think this is pretty fair. All in all, the situation is now quite manageable. I didn't start on Construction last turn because the library was finishing in Sirius, but I'm thinking we should go ahead and get Calendar instead. Last turn I had a look at two of Kuro's cities with our scout, and he's defending them with a single archer each. If we put some sentries up in that direction, I think we can slow down on the military build up until we're actually ready to take him down. We're in HR/Slavery, so we can put the troops we already produced to work as MPs.