[Spoilers] Commodore as Washington of the Mongols

[oledavy]

Just wanted to chime in here as one of this games lurker's and say keep up the good work! The well-written and detailed turn reports make your thread fun to read.

The regular updates from three of the four players in this game make it really interesting to see play out.

[Ceiliazul]

Mr. Power Demo tell me that they are both swinging some kind of real firepower, be it chariots or axes. While it'd be wonderful for them to slow each other down, I do not want one to crush the other, or an icky collusion...I'd hate for an equitable and stable border agreement that sent them both looking eastward with blood in their eyes.

Like you and MNG last game, the map is going to force strife between the hemisphere pairs. Your cheap expansion vector is toward TT, and any border agreement will only be stable if evenly matched in power/tech. Gaspar and Mack are in the same boat. I predict there WILL be a war, in both hemispheres, before that e/w center gets settled.

You're right about this: if anyone scores an early clean kill, it'll be game over.

[Commodore]

Like you and MNG last game, the map is going to force strife between the hemisphere pairs. Your cheap expansion vector is toward TT, and any border agreement will only be stable if evenly matched in power/tech. Gaspar and Mack are in the same boat. I predict there WILL be a war, in both hemispheres, before that e/w center gets settled.

You're right about this: if anyone scores an early clean kill, it'll be game over.

So, feasibility study topic:

How to score a clean kill, and come to dominate half the world.


Right, so all this focus of late has been on REXing (Rapid EXpansion), particularly as my two-city empire is smaller than the rest. Now I'm not entirely cut up about that, as Charismatic's higher happy cap lets me grow my cities bigger, and keep them bigger despite whipping anger. Plus, Stonehenge is easily twice as valuable to me as it is for anyone else here, thanks to not only to the free culture but also the extra happiness. I have several other really good sites I need to claim, and pushing a little bit westward will help any future claims I need to press against my western rival.

But as you pointed out, Ceil, the extreme rectangularity of the map means that we're also in a bit of the Diplomacy setup, where the first one to control his "half" of the map is at a huge advantage. I'd love to make contact out west and try to stir the pot diplomatically to slow down either side from getting a decisive advantage, but it's even better if I can position myself as the first to complete "my triangle".

So, I need to start looking at attacking and crushing TT. The first rush window, chariots, is already past, as with capital copper he can really spam out those spears. The next window is looming, and its width is largely predicated on how soon I can open it with Archery and Horseback Riding, and how hard TT wants to push for Construction. Once catapults on roads are available, I don't want to be attacking Twinkle "Catapult Spam" Toes if I can avoid it.

One initial idea would be to actually get a respectable-looking Keshik force to take the Buddhist holy city, but have the next wave on a couple galleys punched down the coast. Have him focus on spears, and boom, axes to the east near his capital. If he settled the obvious seafood city on the grass hill east of his capital, I could actually use galleys to move through the lakes and land on the bare hill. One thing this shows? I need good scouting information. And fishing/sailing, in any case, won't go amiss.

I need to sim out some stuff here, but I'm opening the floor to thoughts.

[Ceiliazul]

So, I need to start looking at attacking and crushing TT. The first rush window, chariots, is already past, as with capital copper he can really spam out those spears. The next window is looming, and its width is largely predicated on how soon I can open it with Archery and Horseback Riding, and how hard TT wants to push for Construction. Once catapults on roads are available, I don't want to be attacking Twinkle "Catapult Spam" Toes if I can avoid it.

One initial idea would be to actually get a respectable-looking Keshik force to take the Buddhist holy city, but have the next wave on a couple galleys punched down the coast.

Well, you're a ways away from a decent port city, let alone a navy. The age of axes may be past by the time you land that blow...

Otherwise I agree with your analysis of attack windows. What about teching to Keshiks, whipping 8-10 out quickly, and burning his Holy/gold city? It is his present and future tech center, and its loss would be a strong blow. You could tech HBR first for a chance to build Gers until Archery comes in.

If you agree that war is inevitable, make the first strike.

[Ceiliazul]

One additional thought: It might be a good idea to fortify the first spare warrior on the plains/hill/forest tile 3SE of "your" gold. He'd be able to monitor all Eastern approaches to your empire.

[Commodore]

Oh hey look, at turn! It seems like old news (okay, it is), but still, it's nice to see that Gryphon did indeed get itself holy city status, and hey, here's to a border pop too. You will note, I am sinking a few beakers into Horseback Riding, although I'll probably swap out for grabbing Fishing before it's done.



The name of the game this turn was "overflow management", with the granary chop in Gryphon depositing the maximum amount. I'm a bit unsure how I'll do this...I guess I'll have my workers chop the forest south of the cows, although they'll get done in two turns and thus only speed things up by one. Still, 'henge is bloody important. I'll farm the flood plain and then grow to four here, working furs, horses, cows, and the floodplain farm.



Meanwhile, for Manticore's massive overflow I had two options, either 1-turn worker or 1-turn chariot. I opted for chariot, as its overflow in will still be enough to make a 1-turn worker at size 5 next turn, and then I'll grow once more (probably on a warrior, last chance to make one before copper comes online). After that, settler, rinse, repeat. The chariot is also a good idea because I'm kind of settling in TT's face here.



My demos are doing pretty okay right now, considering whips. Need to build more city-makers, either settlers or keshiks. I'm curious if Gaspar or Mackoti has bee-lined the western chewy center like I have.



There's a bit more land to the western edge of Gold Valley, which my warrior will check out. 3 more turns to Stonehenge and the valley city. My hope of being competitive this game rests on the outcome of those gambits.



On the plus side, at least the tracker is working finally.

[Ceiliazul]

Is the warrior currently in Gold Valley also your settler escort? If so, he won't make it back from exploring in time to do his duties.

[Commodore]

Is the warrior currently in Gold Valley also your settler escort? If so, he won't make it back from exploring in time to do his duties.

Sorry, that was slightly less than clear, he'll be going SE next turn to fogbust barbs/check out TT's situation. Then he'll double back to check out the jungled bit to the west, as the chariot can take over the protection a turn after settlement.

I need to check and make sure there's no TT settler down there next turn. Even if there is one on the gold tile, thanks to a nicely-timed forest growth my settler can make it to the plains hill first. I need to ensure that I can get the spot before I can reply to this:

[COLOR="Yellow"]Hey Commodore,

Glad to hear you are on board with notification of meeting our westward compatriots.

I am starting to wonder whether it may be best for us to look at agreeing a NAP and trying to tech up in peace (except for the barbarians) as it seems the other side are doing some serious growth themselves. Would a NAP until say Turn 70 be a good starting point? As we likely both know by now, we all have copper and horse in our capital's BFCs so its really not in anyone's best interests to early rush when everyone has all the strat resources that they need to defend!

If you didn't know that yet, well there's a bit of free info for you ;-)

TT[/COLOR]

Oh yeah, TT, I know buddy. Suddenly realize my power is the one that shows chariots online, eh?

I'm of at least two minds on this one. On the one hand, he's right, our more skilled westward buddies are threatening to overwhelm us with sheer growth superiority, and I'd love to have TT's Imperialistic settlers cutting off Mackoti or Gaspar out west while I do the same, and no rush in the extreme near-term is going to work. On the other hand, turn 60-65 is a little closer to the sweet spot for hitting him with a big bunch of Keshiks, although 70 is within the outer limit of the window I think. Finally, on the gripping hand, I'm about to piss him off with my settlement and if I don't renew around turn 70 he'll start amassing spears I'm sure. It's a bit of a sticky wicket.

[Commodore]

If I do agree to the TT NAP, I'll want the numbered sites at least settled in the next ~15 turns (forgive the clumsy paint mesh). Fishing is in order in any case, as all three of these places need a workboat to have decent food on their own. None of these are production monsters either, but fortunately, my people think I'm pretty cool, so I'll be able to my way forward.



One small side project I'm already seeing is to cottage the four grass tiles being shared by the capital with each of the planned cities, so that I'll at least have five mature towns by the time bureaucracy rolls around. I'm worried about my long-term commerce potential without them.

There is actually a ton of coast on this inland sea map. It makes logical sense for TT (Organized lighthouses) to make Colossus, but I really do want to steal or build it myself with all this water everywhere. Otherwise, these cities are pretty worthless once the era of, say, cavalry spam is done with. Okay, all these sites are pretty worthless long-term anyway.

The blue dot is my planned Moai location, although if I lack stone that's going to be a painful building process. Calendar and Iron Working will give it a healthy food surplus though, no denying the value of those particular techs here. "4" is the other leading Moai candidate right now.

Grey to the far west is my first stab at a landgrab over there, but pretty soon I actually expect to see barbarian cities pop up in the hidden areas and no matter what I decide to do about TT, those barbarians will be juicy conquest targets for my keshiks...ought to be able to get some veterans for even heavier hitting down south, actually.

[yuris125]

How many Keshik-turns away TT is?

If you're going to aggressively settle in his face, I would try to have a NAP in place. Agree that T70 is too far away though. Try to calculate the _realistic_ time when you can attack, and sign the NAP until then. T60 sounds like a good number