[spoilers] pindicator goes off the deep end

[Ceiliazul]

When I ended turn, CCC got another surprise:

wow! how many games see Judiaism predate Meditation? congrats on your find, and here's to free spreads.

Regarding wonders, are there any ancient wonders you still have plans to build?

[pindicator]

Heh, I was commenting to rego on the same thing.

About wonders, I don't think there are any ancient-age ones I'll be getting. I'm eyeing Hanging Gardens but have not crunched any numbers to guess when it will come in or how fast I could get it or if it will be worthwhile to build (I.E. - having enough cities down). It effectively costs me 147 hammers to build: 67 for the aquaduct and 80 for the wonder. But it would undoubtably end up with me whipping away the aquaduct and chopping the 3 forests around New Deal to get it done.

HG is also on my tech path. Right now I'm thinking about Priesthood -> Writing -> Math -> Currency -> CoL, with Archery thrown in somewhere. There's also Polytheism -> Monotheism -> Monarchy for Org Rel and Hereditary Rule/wines. With the lack of happiness I've seen around, I'm very happy to land a religion for that reason, and Monarchy may be worth getting right after Writing for that reason. But if I don't go straight to Math, I can probably forget about HG.

[pindicator]

Turn 50

Big turn, this one. Lots of good stuff happened.
First off, Rego and I came to a deal. I give up Oracle for an alliance: we NAP and work together until its just the two of us. Hell, he might have agreed to one anyway, but I later found out I would have lost the Oracle by one turn had I continued on. He would have finished T54, just like me. I love playing last....

Here's the chat:

Regoarrarr: yeah it wasn't that bad so it would seem that your founding buddhism would make it tricky for us to have the same religion, for AP purposes, no?
[COLOR="Plum"]Me: not necessarily
the AP bonus is granted regardless of state religion correct? [/color]
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: hmm that's true
yes[/color]
[COLOR="Plum"]Me: i was thinking, maybe we agree to spread each other's religion to our cities: you get hinduism in all mine, and i buddhism in yours
so we both get the eventual shrine income
and you get more cheap temples[/color]
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: is that worth the missionary hammers?
i guess depends[/color]
Me: true, it does
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: so what would you oracle, if you were me
(should i beat you) [/color]
[COLOR="Plum"]Me: well, monotheism surprised me - i thought you would get writing to assure yourself of at least CoL
maybe you are aiming for Theocracy? that'd be different[/color]
Regoarrarr: well writing with 3 pre-reqs and at least 2 others that know it comes pretty cheap
Me: true
Regoarrarr: btw i think yuri got math this turn
Me: ah, someone is going for Hanging Gardens
Regoarrarr: seems that way
Me: he hasn't hooked stone up yet though
Regoarrarr: hmm
Me: could be he's doing that now
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: yeah
i just got my stone hooked up[/color]
Me: gaspadore hooked theirs up too
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: i have given some thought to oracling theology like you said
but that would mean i'd likely be going for the AP
and i wasn't sure what that would do for our relations[/color]
[COLOR="Plum"]Me: well, i was thinking about that a bit too
this is a point of no return for me and oracle
this turn, i mean[/color]
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: right
you need to decide whether to tech priesthood or not? [/color]
[COLOR="Plum"]Me: i'll probably tech it either way
i need to either move workers to forests or do other things[/color]
Regoarrarr: ah
Me: so easy to 1-turn it when you're industrious
Regoarrarr:
[COLOR="Plum"]Me: a couple chops, a little overflow
but
what if i give it up for an alliance
NAP until we're the last two standing[/color]
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: well i believe in open communication
so let me tell you what i'm thinking
1) i like you. you're often around, and we've shown a good way to work together with c&d sharing etc
so out of all the civs in the game, i'd much rather work with you than anyone else
but 2)
i'm just a little leery of going all in like this so early on
though it does seem like a good move
okay i've talked myself into it
heh that was easy ;-)
so i agree in principle[/color]
Me: the suspense is killing me here i like #1 well enough
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: yeah i'm in
i talked myself into it[/color]
[COLOR="Plum"]Me: nice
so you may be able to delay oracle a bit then, depending on gaspadore's intentions
yuri's already told me he isn't going for it in the short run[/color]
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: well we should know that gaspadore does not have med or poly right?
now with the religions gone it will be trickier to tell if he has it or not[/color]
Me: that's true
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: but still should be some time
so how quick would you have had it[/color]
Me: T54
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: me too
so i'd have won by tiebreaker[/color]
Me: lol, wow
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: but i think what i'd really LIKE to do is oracle feudalism
which i definitely could not have done by t54
i'd definitely have writing[/color]
Me: but monarchy
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: so i could do theology or code of law
right i won't have writing + monarchy by t54[/color]
Me: when will you?
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: not sure
maybe another 5 turns?
the other thing i've noodled on is currency
which would be about the same time (math or monarchy) [/color]
Me: hmmm... math gets you hammams, monarchy gets you wine & HR
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: currency would be nice for obvious reasons
feudalism nice becaues it's more expensive
plus longbows give some security[/color]
Me: and LBs would be a big deterrant
Regoarrarr: and i could trade you some maybe for some nav 1 galleys?
Me: i would go for that if you were to get fuedalism
Regoarrarr: they're even the same hammer cost for our convenience
Me: and we'd each be getting something we couldn't otherwise
Regoarrarr: right
Me: i like that idea
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: i should have writing in 2 more turns i think
OB / trade routes should help[/color]
[COLOR="Plum"]Me: yeah, they'll give you another 1cpt in each city
what intel do you have on Gaspadore? Right now i see them as having Mysticism & Writing, so they'd have to tech meditation & priesthood before they could start the oracle[/color]
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: yes
agreed
i don't have sian as having teched anything since pottery on t42? [/color]
[COLOR="Plum"]Me: he got writing t48
he offered me OB
but he's already told me he's going for pyramids, unless he's trying to throw me off
but he had stone hooked early so i believe he is[/color]
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: yeah only novice can go for 2 early wonders and get them both
okay i gotta run
ttyl[/color]
[COLOR="Plum"]Me: lol
too true
cya later[/color]

So tell me true: have I just sold myself to the runaway or does this seem a good move? It's too late now, it's done, so you aren't convincing me otherwise. I also like the idea of trading Nav-Galleys for Longbows. It gives me the benefit of longbows and makes me feel more secure about defense. I may not need to tech Archery for some time now. This also makes me feel secure about focusing expansion south and west for the time being. Rego has already asked for a border agreement and I am banking on him bringing that up again before he settles and controversial sites. (Although the only controversial site I can see is the corn to my north.)

We finished our third worker. Meet Claude A. Swanson, Secretary of the Navy under FDR from 1933 until he died in 1939. There's a small wikipedia page on him here.



He's roading the horses to hook up chariots, then he boards the galley to help the next city along.
Three workers, four cities. Hmmm, that needs to change, even if we are on a tiny islands script. And I've queued up two more settlers so it'll be three workers for six cities soon enough. Then I'll really need more workers.

Here are my lands at the end of the turn.



C&D work shows Yuris gained two pop but whipped one. He also teched a classical tech, which has to be Mathematics -- well, it could be Metal Casting but that seems doubtful. And Gaspadore grew a pop as well. So, kind of a quiet turn.


Up next: Turn 50 Empire Report

[pindicator]

Turn 50 Overview


The Known World

Near
[spoiler]

And Far

[/spoiler]

Cities

New Deal
[spoiler]

New Deal is pumping out 15 h+f / turn, and is going to use that to build a settler (T55) and a worker (T57). Then a work boat for the new cities I'm going to be planting, another worker, or a library are all possible. We'll be cottaging over the flood plains and taking back the wheat as soon as CCC is on its feet. One of the warriors in the city will make its way to CCC to act as military police.

AAA

Here we have the second settler being built. On T52 we 2-pop whip, but after that I'm not quite sure on the detail. Do I use the overflow to build a granary? Or another worker? I'm leaning towards granary right now, but I know I need workers badly too. Speeding up either build, my worker Cordell Hull will be chopping out the riverside forest, and then cottaging tiles around AAA.

There's also the Great Prophet coming up. Without any help it will come on Turn 77. I plan on speeding that up a bit: building a library here and hiring a pair of scientists. If I get a scientist then it's an academy in the capital; if I get a priest we get our shrine up and running.

CAA

What a wretched little city. What i think I will do with this is get it to size 2 and then take advantage of it's 10 food + hammer / turn to pump out a few workers. But until then I'm going to finish the trading post and then whip out a granary. Then it's probably galleys and workers for this city for the foreseeable future.

CCC

Here is the Buddhist capital of the world! I was thinking of making this city my Moai / Heroic City until Buddhism landed here; now I know it will be my Wall Street city and I'll be matching Moai & Heroic Epic somewhere else.

The plan for CCC is to grow with the wheat and the clams, getting granary whipped out once it reaches size 3. The city will be size 4 by T59. With two hills, 3 grasslands, and a clam, plus borrowing wheat from the capital, it should be one of my better cities.

[/spoiler]

Expenses

Cities are only costing 9gpt, and the unit supply will disappear next turn when I turn a work boat into fish nets. I'm not anticipating too much expense from my next two cities: they will be 4 and 6.5 tiles distance from the capital.

Military

Can you believe I'm #1 in soldier points with this army?

Technology

I thought about going Writing straight away, but decided to take Priesthood first because I'm not certain Writing -> Math is the best plan. It may be better to go for Monarchy since there's so little early happiness. I see a couple paths:

• Writing -> Math
  
• Polytheism -> Monotheism
  
• Monarchy
  

I'll probably go Writing after Priesthood so I can get libraries started in New Deal and AAA. And then I decide whether OR/HR early is worth more than a shot at Hanging Gardens.

Foreign Affairs

Top 5 Cities
[spoiler]

Victory Screen

Demographics

[/spoiler]

[Ceiliazul]

C&D work shows Yuris gained two pop but whipped one. He also teched a classical tech, which has to be Mathematics -- well, it could be Metal Casting but that seems doubtful.

How do you determine if someone grew AND whipped?

Also, whats the difference between a classical tech and ancient?

Regarding selling to the leader, that depends how it plays out. If you can push for better benefits than just an NAP, then it may work out for you. If you can use the secure backline and attack Inca, ditto.

[pindicator]

Secure the back line and press Inca are indeed the short term goals! Right now it's just land grab that way, but maybe we'll do something with pointy sticks later on.

C&D has lots of facets. You can tell how many total population points someone grew by their score - usually - but the amount of points a population gives changes game to game. In this game each pop point gives 4.49236... points. (I'll find the link to show how to get that number later.) Then you also have the demographics screen to help out, where you can see rival best, rival average, and rival worst. Those don't count total population points, but gives the population "flavor" number, where 1 pop = 1,000 people; 2 pop = 6,000 people; 3 pop = 21,000 ... and so on.

So as an example, on turn 51 rego's score increased by 4 points, consistent with growing 1 total population. I had already figured out Gaspadore, Sian, & Yuris, so I knew that rego had to reach 216,000 people, and that he was at cities sized 6/3/3/2/1 last turn. (I also can tell his capital is size 6 from "Top 5 cities" screen, and I have sight on So Dumb and can see it is size 4.) So I just increase one city to 6/4/3/2/1, then he is at 226,000 people -- more than rival best. So I play with the numbers, but keep him at a total population of 16, and find that if he whipped his size 3 down to size 2, and his size 1 grew to size 2, then 6/4/2/2/2 gives him 216,000 people.

If you were to start on turn 50 and try to figure it out from that turn's demographics, it's tough. But if you keep a running total, it makes more sense to see: Oh, he grew here, whipped here, etc. Later on it will probably be impossible to track every city.

Regarding techs, you get get 2000/334 (or 5.988...) pts for each ancient era tech. You get double that amount for classical, triple for medieval, 4x for renaissance, and up and up until 7x pts for future tech.

Putting it all together is just puzzle work. You see which numbers fit, which actions make sense for the last turn.

[T-hawk]

In this game each pop point gives 4.49236... points. (I'll find the link to show how to get that number later.)

Mouseover your score on the scoreboard and look at the denominator for the population number, say it's 1250. Each pop point is worth 5000/1250 = 4 points. This is a derivation from the fact that "full" population score is 5000, when your pop equals the theoretical max pop for the map. (theoretical being fairly basic and not counting things like corps and supermarkets.)

[Ceiliazul]

That's great info! Are there resources to explain how land and wonder points are added?

[T-hawk]

Same way. 2000 is the score for owning all the land tiles on the map, so your land score is 2000/X points per tile. (A land tile only counts after it has been held for 20 turns.)

1000 is the score for all wonders, so wonders score 1000/X points each. I don't remember offhand if national wonders count but I think they do. Shrines and corporate HQs do. Projects don't.

[Ceiliazul]

Same way. 2000 is the score for owning all the land tiles on the map, so your land score is 2000/X points per tile. (A land tile only counts after it has been held for 20 turns.)

1000 is the score for all wonders, so wonders score 1000/X points each. I don't remember offhand if national wonders count but I think they do. Shrines and corporate HQs do. Projects don't.

Thank you muchly... I'm a little confused about national wonders too, On t1 I see my little capital lists "5/310" for wonders... but all I have is a palace.