[SPOILERS] - TT really should be better than this after all these games...

[Catwalk]

You're up TT

China and England have been picked. Given that we don't know the start, I wouldn't gamble on a seafood start. I suggest going for either Mining/Mysticism or Mining/Wheel. Mali has Mining/Wheel, Korea has Mining/Mysticism. I'd probably pick a leader first since you still have all options available to you. My money is on Expansive, Philosophical or Spiritual coupled with either Industrious or Charismatic. What do you think Gaspar?

[Twinkletoes89]

Well it seems like Expansive is the favoured trait and I am beginning to agree with you which leaves us with these options:

Bismarck (Exp/Ind)
Washington (Exp/Cha)

or Ramesses (Spi/Ind) as I still do like him aswell.

Now I've played as Bismarck and Washington before (PBEM 3 & 7) and never as Ramesses.

Washington becomes more useful with Stonehenge, but I doubt I'll get a free run at it like I did in 7.

Bizzie is a very solid leader and may well be the most flexible for me - early Oracle push for Metal Casting and get the production humming quickly while expansive Granaries get the food and pop churning out.

Ramesses would be fun, but it may be a bit too much of all-in gamble for me as its points towards a priest economy with wonders. I do like Spiritual and would like to use it though, I just worry about if losing Expansive would be too big a loss.

Thoughts quickly before I choose?

[Twinkletoes89]

Also, with these options, might it be better for me to go for a civ first?

If we want a Myst Start - then we need to choose Korea (+ Mining), Arabia (+Wheel) or Maya (+ Mining)

If not - then we can hold back on it.

I think I should pick Maya and then all my leader options are open?

[Catwalk]

Mali with Washington. Lets you expand in a hurry: Fast workers, +2 happy from the start (with Monument) and strong/cheap defense. I say we come out with guns blazing and stake a nice claim on our rightful share of the territory, past results be damned In the unlikely event that you find my advice to be beneficial, I say grab Mali first. I think Mali is more likely to be grabbed than Washington is. And should he be grabbed there are some nice leader alternatives available still. I think at least one of the next two players will grab a Mysticism/Spiritual combo.

[Twinkletoes89]

I've gone with Maya.

I've played Mali before and I fancied something different. Plus I think Maya allows us the most flexibility with leader selection when it comes back around to us. I think (+3 happiness) Ball Courts is too good to turn down plus resourceless holkans only need a diversion to hunting instead of Archery for skirmishers.

I still am not completely against going for Catherine though. Imp/Cre with Maya could be really tasty for taking land early, holding it with resourceless spears and having quick culture to dominate borders. I know Expansive is very good, but I wonder if Catherine may be a bit more fun?

Try and convince me guys!

[Catwalk]

I've tried to talk you out of Imp twice now, don't mind trying again Imperialistic doesn't really let you expand faster, as expansion speed doesn't have that much to do with settler cost. It's more about upkeep costs and worker availability, not to mention distance from your capital and land quality. As for fun, I say whatever maximizes your chances of success will be most fun :neenernee

Since you have Maya, it would make sense to pick a Creative leader to put up your Ball Courts at double speed. Maybe Creative/Industrious? Or even Creative/Charismatic, giving you a very impressive early happy cap (+5 with Monument at 20 hammers and Ball Court at 40 hammers). If you luck into lots of high food tiles, that could pay off nicely.

[Commodore]

Since you have Maya, it would make sense to pick a Creative leader to put up your Ball Courts at double speed. Maybe Creative/Industrious? Or even Creative/Charismatic, giving you a very impressive early happy cap (+5 with Monument at 20 hammers and Ball Court at 40 hammers). If you luck into lots of high food tiles, that could pay off nicely.

Because it's anti-synergistic to have a monument trait with Creative, there is no Creative/Charismatic.

[Twinkletoes89]

There is no Cre/Cha leader unfortunately

So we have:

Expansives

Washington (+ Cha)
Bizzie (+Ind)

Creatives

Louis (+Ind)
Zara Yaqob (+ Org) ?

Others

Ramesses - (Spi/Ind)

------------

Creative is nice for synergy but I don't think it has to be everything. A +3 happiness building even at 80 hammers isn't awful if it means we get the expansive bonus instead.

[Catwalk]

Oh, whoops
And yes, that would in fact be a pretty poor combo. Creative/Industrious then? I'm sure you'll end up going with Creative/Imperialistic though, so go for it I suppose it's decent enough, especially if upkeep costs aren't too bad. Are the map settings known, and is the game on Emperor difficulty?

If you're okay with skipping Creative, I say go for Washington or Bismarck if they're available.

[Twinkletoes89]

To develop that point, we could go with Washington and use the Cha happiness in the short term and use workers to build up the civ and then the Ball Courts get brought it a little later as the populations start to get large.

Or we use Bismarck, oracle MC and get forges out cheaply which will then make the hammer cost of building the Ball Courts less of an issue. Again we get the expansive bonus too.

Or we have Ramesses who can also use the Ind Forges and we could use an early religion for the early happiness and the supplement the happiness with Ball Courts later on.

Or if we do go Creative - Louis combines the best of Bizzie with the possible early forges and makes the Ball Courts even cheaper. We just have to decide if full hammer Granaries and Workers is worth it!