[spoilers] pindicator goes off the deep end

[SevenSpirits]

Although Meditation does lead to Philosophy (with CoL or Drama), Philo does not lead to Paper-Education - it's on a separate path altogether. As long as you lack Civil Service and Theology, the Optics-Astronomy route goes next, and in fact Optics itself comes before Paper (though not before Education), just like Philosophy does.

[pindicator]

Although Meditation does lead to Philosophy (with CoL or Drama), Philo does not lead to Paper-Education - it's on a separate path altogether. As long as you lack Civil Service and Theology, the Optics-Astronomy route goes next, and in fact Optics itself comes before Paper (though not before Education), just like Philosophy does.

You know, when I wrote that I wasn't even paying attention to what I had him marked down for technology, but I forgot he doesn't even have Code of Laws yet. So he could be doing exactly that - and if so, that is a great use for a Great Scientist.

[pindicator]

[SIZE="4"]The alliance with Regoarrarr[/SIZE]

[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Rego: with 3 pop points (figure 13 or so)
so 42 left
hmm
could sian have bulbed a tech with his engineer?
and researched one too[/COLOR]
me: yeah
Rego: it would bulb MC
me: he could have
Rego: you said 2 people had MC?
[COLOR="Plum"]me: yeah, but i'm looking at t69 right now
nobody had MC on t69[/COLOR]
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Rego: dun dun dun
that seems to make sense then
currency + MC + 1 whip for sian?[/COLOR]
me: oh, that sneaky little man
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Rego: we need a name for our alliance
so that when we have great triumphs like this, we can say something [/COLOR]
me: lol
Rego: the great <blah blah> strikes again!!!!!
me: but what would convey the appropriate gravitas?

We had this conversation back around turn 72. If you remember this was when I was throwing in the towel on c&d. Then I put my head together with Rego and we figured it out. Every couple turns we get together and go over scores. We've been able to keep tabs on technology, land points, wonders, and population because of it.

But Rego is really fun to work with. I got a sense of that from reading previous threads, but chatting with him as often as this game has led to really has enhanced the fun I get out of this game.

Right now the alliance has only consisted of three things: agreeing to take down the other civs before we go against each other, working together to solve c&d puzzles, and an agreement to settle towards other civilizations / okaying it with the other person (right) before we settle near their existing cities. Oh, and the first and second rules of Fight Club thrown in for good measure.

One thing we haven't discussed at all is actively working together to take down other civs. That changed yesterday:

Regoarrarr: commodore was asking me today if i knew anything bout you and yuri
me: huh, did he give away any motive for that?
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: he said something like no nap, no power spike
i said i didn't know
but then i thought that i wasn't sure what to say about you and i
and thought we should at least coordinate a story or something
i said that i was working on a napish agreement with you
since berskerers were on the way
so if anyone asks....
maybe we have a nap that's set to expire at some point and we're discussing its renewal?[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Plum"]me: yeah
and maybe talks could start going badly soon
what turn does the NAP end on? let's say... t100. it's a plausible number[/COLOR]
[COLOR="PaleGreen"] Regoarrarr: nah that's only 8t away
let's say 120[/COLOR]
me: if we're discussing it's renewal shouldn't it be closer?
Regoarrarr: i don't want anyone to potentially want to dogpile us if we have "fake" drama
[COLOR="Plum"]me: we don't have to act like talks aren't working well
we could just say we're negotiating but neither of us are in a rush
anyway, it's probably a better deceipt if they feel like they've come to the (wrong) conclusion on their own[/COLOR]
Regoarrarr: ok
me: how far in advance do you normally negotiate NAP renewals?
[COLOR="PaleGreen"] Regoarrarr: 10-20t?
depends[/COLOR]
me: well, you're a pretty proactive guy, so i would imagine you would have come to me kind of early if you knew i was heading towards berserkers
Regoarrarr: yeah
[COLOR="Plum"]me: but if you didn't know, would you be saying "2 techs away, better get something in stone" or wait until i got one of the pre-reqs
one of CS/machinery, that is
or is this just over-thinking it? [/COLOR]
[COLOR="PaleGreen"]Regoarrarr: probably
let's not get too crazy here [/COLOR]
[COLOR="Plum"]me: good point
ok, so taking a step back, i would like the flexibility to possibly attack yuri with berserkers, and not have him know they are definitely coming his way
any chance of that happening?[/COLOR]
Regoarrarr: how so?
me: well, if people don't know we have a NAP when zerks are on the scene, they may have second thoughts
[COLOR="PaleGreen"] Regoarrarr: got it
i can just say that i have enough longbows that i feel comfortable
i mean i'm #2 in power
so it's not like i got nuttin[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Plum"]me: it would have been a better sell if yuri hadn't caught up to you though
yeah
i'm probably 80% sure i'm going to go to war after CS/machinery, so there will be lots of zerker whipping going on[/COLOR]
Regoarrarr: cool
me: so it'd be nice if we can keep some doubt abroad as to where those zerks are headed
[COLOR="PaleGreen"] Regoarrarr: i agree
you're on CS now, right?[/COLOR]

He went on to offer a gold loan so I could speed up CS/machinery, try to give tips on how to get there faster, and then we discussed where our settlers were going next. Unfortunately I don't think my bottleneck for going to war is going to be research; it's going to be production. Although I may ask him for a small loan after I get CS/machinery so I can upgrade axes.

I get his motivation for helping me to war. If the rest of the world is fighting, he might be able to tech away in peace. He wants to win the game. And so do I. I'm likely going to go to war with Yuri because I need to be stronger than Rego when it's just the two of us left.

So that's where I would put the alliance at. We're helping each other because we both see it as a great way to beat Gaspar/Commodore, Yuri, and Sian. But we're looking for our own little advantages along the way. And that certain has ruffled feathers on both parties.

Here's my big feather ruffler:



This is a screenshot of all the lands north and south of me. First of all, notice what's right in the middle. Rego's city. I had to find that one; he didn't tell me about it. It isn't that close to his lands, and I can't imagine it's his best city location. So I honestly can't see why he settled there except to push me.

And I let him push me.

He told me two turns ago that he has a settler en route to the jungle island just north of WearsCombtBoots. I said "okay". I've very upset at myself for saying "okay", because it isn't okay.

Look at the screenshot again. Where can I expand west? Yuri borders my core, and then it is ocean, and then Commodore's reach of a city. Then more ocean and then Yuri again. East is rego. So I've expanded north and south. So I've told him I'm sending a settler east. It's picking up a crappy little city, north of his gems city. But it's staking territory.


To wrap up, I think the alliance has been a good idea. Rego is a lot of fun to work with, and while I'm sure feelings may get chafed at points, it's because we're both still playing to win. But if we continue to help each other with passing information and providing the security of a stable neighbor, I think it's going to work out.

Take one more glance at that last screenshot. My entire east is now relatively safe because of this alliance. The only two fronts I need to worry about are the main border with Yuri, and anything coming by the city of Malaka'Jin. On a torroidal map that is a lot of border security.


We still haven't thought of a name for this alliance, so if anybody's got ideas out there...

[pindicator]

The next turn is in and I am rethinking the idea of war with Yuri.

He will not crumble like Sian did; i will not be so lucky as Gaspadore. Berserkers will do quick initial damage, but then I have to contend with the units he can whip up. And if Rego is #1 in population then Yuri is 1b - barely far enough off the pace to count.

I have to whip heavily to get the units I'd need. Currently I can muster up troops for 18 berserkers, 8 axes, 10 boats. Counting the 7 galleys i have that's enough to transport and a few triremes for cover. In theory I can have all these troops in place and ready to invade on t103. But planning the logistics of actually moving these troops is going to be NUTS. Workers better like the island they're on, cause they're not going to be moving while the war is going on.

I could invest all those hammers in infrastructure and potentially blow by Yuri.

My economy is outperforming his. I'm making 75% more gold at max tax: he shows up as 81gpt and I am at 143.


Reasons to invade:
He's #4 in power and #2 (1b, really) in population
I can have 26 units & 15 boats ready to invade in 10 turns.
After my current settlers disembark, I only have 4 decent spots left to plant cities. I'm hemmed in on all sides.
Smashing things is fun!

Reasons not to invade:
With the rest of the world at war, does Rego run away with the game?
Planning logistics. I have a newfound respect for Gaspadore's war effort.
Need big payoff to make up for all the hammers / population put into this war.
Continuing in infrastructure may really put us up to #1. Most cities still lack libraries & markets.
Think on this: Mausolleum of Maussollos finishes in 2 turns. I can have Literature researched in 2 turns. Great Library would then be a 5-turn build in the capital.



So I'm going to take some time and think on this. Also, Sian offered 2gpt for my silk, so I sent him an email to ask what was up. I may give it to him for free, really, but he didn't send a note. I fear he's already checked out of this game.

[pindicator]

Turn 93

Guess which way I decided to go:



I'm also starting to feel the effects of the lack of resources on this map:



The health ones. Compass is going to be a stop soon enough, to get more health in my larger cities.


Next turn we turn the research back on. If I'm lucky I should come just shy of getting Civil Service after t95. Then Civil Service comes in end of t96. Machinery comes in end of t97. Mass whippings on t98.

[pindicator]

Turn 94

I screwed up my micro on the very turn I figured it out. CAA was supposed to swap to a galley last turn, and then 2-pop whip that galley this turn, with overflow finishing the barracks, and getting an axe out before machinery comes in at the end of t97. But i left it on barracks. So there's not enough time now to put a turn into a galley, 2-pop whip, then finish the barracks -- i have to choose to have one less axe for me to upgrade to a zerk, or one less galley.

Gaspador discovered Optics last turn. Now skipping Code of Laws begins to make more sense. Philosophy isn't opened up yet, so that Great Scientist will bulb Astronomy now. They're playing a very aggressive game; makes me glad they're on the other side of the world from me.

Research is turned on, and after settling 2 new cities I'm looking at 40g more in expenses, but also just enough beakers to 2-turn Civil Service.

I hit 'End Turn' and Maussoleum of Maussollos is mine.

[oledavy]

I hit 'End Turn' and Maussoleum of Maussollos is mine.

Congratulations!

[pindicator]

Isn't this kind of stuff frowned upon?

Regoarrarr: how many times can i mess up this turn?
[COLOR="Plum"]me: dunno
how many times have you save scummed it? [/COLOR]
Regoarrarr: i think i've reloaded it like 6 times
me: ouch, what are you messing up?
Regoarrarr: different things each time
[COLOR="Plum"]me: i keep trying different things so i don't mess up my plans
lately it's posting signs on the map
last turn i put one under a galley saying "Go NE". guess which way i sent him[/COLOR]
Regoarrarr: NW?
me: ... yep

I was joking when I first asked about save scumming; I didn't think he had actually done it.

[Ceiliazul]

Isn't this kind of stuff frowned upon?

My sense as a newbie is that it's not terrible *if* there's no luck required or exploration happening.

Six times is a lot though!

[pindicator]

Yeah, I have done that if I get a trade proposal coming in. I need to see the situation before I know if I want to accept it or not. But if I've made a mistake in moving a unit, I've let it stand. Maybe I should reset if it doesn't affect RNG outcomes (like battles) or if it's done before fogged territory is revealed. Still, it feels like too sticky a situation for me, and I'd rather just let the mistake stand.