December 13th, 2011, 16:09
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Ilios Wrote:I really don't understand why Amelia would take sides with the Vamps at this point in the game.
Fully agree. I think Amelia is just one of those players who is happy with a mediocre finish if they finish. Personally I don't see a difference between 2nd and last, so I play to win. And Mackoti is a greater threat than any of the coalition members.
It always infuriates me when some middle-bottom Civ (Amelia's really only ahead of Yellow at this point) buddies up to the clear leader. And I say this liking mackoti, but its just a silly way to play.
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December 13th, 2011, 16:25
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Gaspar Wrote:It always infuriates me when some middle-bottom Civ (Amelia's really only ahead of Yellow at this point) buddies up to the clear leader. And I say this liking mackoti, but its just a silly way to play.
I don't see it as being that clear-cut. Amelia is apparently still suffering badly from the blight-bomb; how would you react if Ravus nuked all your cities and then asked you to work for his team? Judging by his thread, Amelia sees his best chance as trying to tech to the good Amurite toys while the rest of the world fights. He may be afraid of the vampires losing too fast if he throws in with the vampire haters.
December 13th, 2011, 16:29
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Vampires can never lose too fast...
December 13th, 2011, 17:16
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Ilios Wrote:Vampires can never lose too fast...
Heh, it's true. But Dave has a good point, Mackoti seems to have been very respectful of Amelia all game, whereas Ravus has just blathered in assuming that Amelia knows its in the Ammurites' best interest to fight Mack. Sadly for Ravus, not everyone always operates in enlightened self-interest to win the game.
And yeah, I agree with Gaspar, it is a bit infuriating, but you just have to roll with it in a diplomacy game, humans will be people, not rational odds-calculators. And sometimes, they'd rather lose a computer game to someone who treated them well.
Although it kinda seems that Amelia has delusions of winning if he sides with Mack, which is just plain dumb. 
December 13th, 2011, 20:09
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DaveV Wrote:I don't see it as being that clear-cut. Amelia is apparently still suffering badly from the blight-bomb; how would you react if Ravus nuked all your cities and then asked you to work for his team? Judging by his thread, Amelia sees his best chance as trying to tech to the good Amurite toys while the rest of the world fights. He may be afraid of the vampires losing too fast if he throws in with the vampire haters.
Well, not to be mean, but Amelia has shown time and again an inability to understand his place in the game (overall, not just in FFH8.) Judging by his thread he seems to think getting some Wizards out was key to success, so I haven't seen much of a plan for Govannon at all. I guess we all play differently, but as is said after me, if he thinks he has any chance of winning this game as long as mackoti is in it, he's smoking something very, very strong.
On the other note, I don't blame other players for being annoyed with Ravus, but Blight happens almost every game. It shouldn't come as a big surprise. I guess ultimately I can imagine why he might not want to play with coalition on a personal level. On a competition level, I don't see how he has a choice if he harbors any hope of victory.
On a third aside, with mackoti out of the picture, the game is pretty wide open. Sareln has no experience making it this late in a competitive game here, Ravus has an off-the-wall strategy that could hurt him as well as help him, Mist has played a weird game, Yellow seems pretty hopeless. I guess in his shoes I'd see the overall opportunity.
Wall of text later, I don't think it matters all that much because I don't see any way the coalition wins regardless between less than exceptionally strong forces and less than strong cohesion. I think Ravus has erred in putting too many eggs in the Armageddon basket and not recognizing the strength of vampires at this point. He clearly has the skill to organize this dogpile better, rather than pissing his allies off. Certainly, in the late game, played by competent players, both the Elves and Amurites are strong enough to defeat them - probably even stronger, truthfully but we 1. Have no reason to believe they can get there and 2. Have no evidence that Sareln and Amelia have the requisite skill to make use of those toys.
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December 15th, 2011, 17:16
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*sees most recent post* Okay, I hearby retract any and all reasoning beyond "Amelia is dumb".  GG, Mack.
December 15th, 2011, 18:06
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Commodore Wrote:*sees most recent post* Okay, I hearby retract any and all reasoning beyond "Amelia is dumb". GG, Mack.
I'm afraid I agree. 15 mages won't conquer the world, not even close. Especially...especially not when declaring war on everyone at once. Heck, 15 Keelyn-mages was only barely sufficient in VII, and that was with much smaller empires than we're going to see here and near-perfect diplo.
It might be enough to spoil, though.
The only thing that makes me doubt, is that we have no idea what forces the alliance is bringing, especially Sareln. And...Amelia's worldspell may nerf vamps more than Amelia's whole army helps them Which is the piece that really really confuses me. 
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December 15th, 2011, 18:14
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Amelia's "best case scenario" gameplan completely ignores what an army of vampires can do.
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December 15th, 2011, 23:48
Bobchillingworth
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Diplomacy lunacy aside, Amelia has completely missed the point of the Amurities. They aren't considered a devastating late-game civ because of their Wizards. Wizards are just regular old mages with a one-time-use twincast. Nice, but hardly a game-changer on their own. The real strength of the civ is in either firebow spam or using Govannon to give priests / other channeling II+ units spells. You can do both, but the tech investment starts to get absurd. Among the various reasons why Amurite priest armies are superior to wizard stacks is that priests are entirely capable of waging war with minimal support. Take a bunch of Confessors, give them a combat spell, stoneskin, and a blessing each, and they'll be able to both defend themselves from whatever gets through their summon screens & capture cities. Strength 4 Wizards defended by max strength 5 summons are just asking to get run down by HA or chariots or even axemen.
December 16th, 2011, 00:59
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I don't think Wizards make great line units, you want to maximise your mana sources while training Adepts, which means it's hard to stack up mana to instantly unlock level 2 spells, while putting the rest of your xp into Mobility/Spell Extension/Combat promotions.
Also, can Hosts get Blessed?
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