Yeah you're right Catwalk, probably wouldn't actually help us any messing around ith triremes (although it would be fun). You did indeed post the chat up and I agree that getting a silver source should be a priority, possibly 5th or 6th city?
I'm thinking 3rd or 4th, actually. We also have horses to grab down there, I think it's worth satisfying some growth in order to achieve these objectives.
The game is heating up! Message received from Sian:
Sian Wrote:I'm currently looking at Oracle in ~10t without futher boosting the speed, up for calling the race so no one get hurt?
Returned the following message:
Catwalk Wrote:Hmm, 10t is very fast. If you've pulled that off, well done. Would you be willing to supply a screenshot to confirm it? Which tech are you planning on grabbing with it?
Discussed this lots and lots with slowcheetah in chat. We determined that he's either bluffing or planning on grabbing a junk tech with the Oracle. He has researched Animal Husbandry, Mysticism and Meditation (completed t16) so far. At the time of the message (t18 completed), he will only have been able to put 2t worth of beakers into Priesthood. Working Cows, Corn and a plains forest (can't build mines), he'll have a production of 7, boosted to 10 with Industrious. Will take him 10t to complete the Oracle at that pace, and Priesthood will take another 3t to complete before he can get started. He also can't do much of anything to boost its pace, as he can't chop. He could swap a corn tile for a plains forest, but that's just putting his growth even further into the hole as he'll be stuck at size 3. He'll be getting zero extra commerce from his tiles, while we're working river hills and flood plains.
There is no way he can get Oracle before us unless he forfeits Metal Casting, given his tech choices so far. We have skipped Animal Husbandry, as it is not on the path to Metal Casting. If Sian goes through with this plan, he's stunting his early growth massively without much to show for it. We're considering trying to negotiate for a non-compete on Pyramids in order to let him claim Oracle.
Sian Wrote:actually ... looking over it might be closer to 12 (2t for priesthood to finish and ~10 turns for building it)... unless i can get you to forfeit, my target is going to be Monachy, not as hot as MC, but still a good chip (and only some 40(?) beakers below the cost of MC)
He is bluffing, he was hoping to get MC by getting us to forfeit. We can bluff too! In fact, we're certain that we can complete the Oracle 1-2t faster than him if we're willing to waste it on Monarchy. Responded as follows:
Quote:Hey Sian.
After conferring with slowcheetah, we would like to accept your offer. Thank you for reaching out your hand in cooperation, we agree that we're both better off by not having a race. Whoever is able to get the Oracle fastest (demonstrated through honest screenshots and calculations confirmed by a neutral observer if necessary) earns the right to build it. Do you wish to include any concessions (such as non-competes on other wonders) for the player who doesn't get the Oracle?
Best regards,
Catwalk of team slowwalk
I'm trying hard to make it difficult for him to go back on his own deal. If he does so anyway, we're going to get very aggressive with him He may even think that he can beat us to Oracle (with Monarchy grab) and accept. We have absolutely no interest in building the Oracle in the capital and wasting it on Monarchy, but it's a credible bluff. We have turn advantage and chopping advantage on him, those factors easily surpass him being Industrious and having a 2t head start.
Alternatively, we might risk a major bluff giving him the impression we're backing down without actually making a deal with him about it. He might then pursue a Metal Casting grab, and we would beat him to it. This is a bit more shady, and a lot more risky seeing as he seems willing to pull a lose-lose situation.
After a lot of arm wrestling with Sian, we have arrived at an agreement:
1) He backs down from Oracle, letting us grab MC (unless Kuro were to somehow grab it, we should actually go check that)
2) We give him a non-compete on Great Library, Great Lighthouse and Colossus
slowcheetah, I'm sorry for not conferring with you but the negotiations were rather tense and I was busy too today. I hope you're okay with the end result, I apologize if not.
Full logs, for anyone interested:
Quote:14.44
mig: Hey
sianist: hejsa
mig: I was about to type something in Dutch, but I only know goede morgen
I can pronounce it, though!
sianist: better than me then
14.45
mig: Timing sucks, I'm on my way out the door in 15 minutes
Will you be on in about 2 hours?
sianist: i'm
14.46
mig: You will be around?
sianist: yeah
mig: Awesome, sorry to bother you
14.47
sianist: bother?
mig: Well, ask you to chat and then run off
sianist: not really honestly ...just sitting and listening to musical music
14.49
mig: Sorry, was getting dressed
14.50
Are there any wonders you're interested in? We like Great Library and Pyramids
5 minutter
14.55
sianist: Pyramids you're more than welcome to take if i get Oracle in peace
14.56
Great Libary ... would like to see a bit more of the map before i comment on that one way or another
mig: Which wonders would you be interested, if we were to land Oracle?
interested in*
We know the entire map now, btw
Excluding the water
14.57
sianist: so that means your unwilling to get a non-complete on Pyramids for Oracle?
14.58
mig: No, it means I'll settle for that if we cannot beat you to Oracle
As I mentioned in the e-mail
And offering similar non-competes to you, if we beat you to it
14.59
I really have to run Sian, I'll be on in about 2h
Thanks for taking your time to talk it over
17.16
mig: Hey
17.17
That took longer than expected
sianist: happens
mig: And I have to leave in 10 minutes, under orders from my wife to drive her somewhere
Will be back about 20 minutes after that
sianist: couldn't you just play the save and then discuss onwards afterwards
17.18
with Xeno out for the weekend in a few then
mig: Well, the discussion would dictate our decisions this turn
As we'd make two very different decisions depending on the outcome
sianist: choice 1 is ?
choice 2 is ?
17.19
mig: Well, there are 3
1) Grab Monarchy with Oracle
2) Grab MC with Oracle
Refrain from building Oracle
3) is the last one, sorry
sianist: but still ... i'm willing to give you a noncomplete on Pyramids if i get it
mig: I understood your e-mail to say that you're willing to let the race be called
17.20
Whoever can complete it first gets it
Correct?
sianist: not quite
mig: And the other backs down
No?
That's what I read from it
sianist: it was a subtle hint that i had Meditation now and would be able to get Oracle before you would be able to
17.21
mig: But that is not the case
We've calculated our finish date, and yours
We can get it 2t before your earliest completion date
If we're also willing to grab Monarchy
sianist: but are you that? ... thats the big question
17.22
and not one i'm a part of
mig: We're willing to do that, yes
And I took your message to imply that you wish to cooperate about the Oracle
17.23
sianist: maybe, maybe not
mig: Should I then interpret your message as follows
1) You know that we can get Oracle faster than you
17.24
2) You want us to let you have it instead
sianist: what are you willing to suggest for an argeement ... i've stated that i'm up for giving a noncomplete of 'mids
yeah ...
or no
mig: My suggestion is that we determine who can get it first
Whoever can get it first, gets it
sianist: misread ... my math says that i'm first
mig: The other gets compensation
17.25
Alright
We can work with that
If we prove you wrong, would you accept our offer?
sianist: you still haven't said anything about what you would be willing to compesate with ... before that i'm not able to make an educated pick
mig: I've mentioned non-competes on wonders
17.26
And asked if anything else would be relevant
sianist: you've said that you would like to get Libary and Pyramids if i get Oracle ... you haven't said what you would be able to noncomplete if you get it
17.27
mig: Which wonders would you be interested in?
sianist: Lighthouse and Libary
17.28
mig: That would be reasonable
Do you believe it's possible to objectively determine who can complete the Oracle first, based on screenshots? My idea was to have a neutral observer review the evidence
17.29
Like Commodore, for example
sianist: not interested in such, because then when its pointed out who would win, he would stall it to get a better tech, leaving the other able to win it anyways
17.30
mig: Which is why we're discussing an agreement now
That's what you were suggesting in your message, right?
sianist: said otherwise ... i'm not interested in giving you the chance to get MC
mig: So you're playing entirely to sabotage us?
sianist: entirely? ... no
mig: But you wanted us to give you the chance to get MC
Then plainly state you don't want to give us that option
17.31
Even though we're willing to offer you compensation
And are able to complete the Oracle before you
How is that not playing to sabotage us?
sianist: because i don't buy that you're able to complete it before me
mig: Alright
Let's determine that first then
If we prove that beyond doubt, would it change your mind?
sianist: specially if you're dead-set on getting MC
17.32
mig: If we can get MC before you get Monarchy, we would have no need to talk to you about an agreement
Will you be around in 20-30 minutes?
My wife is nagging me
Which means she's beating me
sianist: *cheers
mig: Thanks!!
Sorry again
sianist: but sure ... i'm there at that point (unless i'm making dinner)
22 minutter
17.55
mig: Hey
(and sorry again again)
sianist: no sweat
17.56
mig: Let's see if we can agree on the facts of the situation
As we seem to be talking past each other a bit
17.57
sianist: shoot
mig: 1) Our Oracle/Monarchy grab is faster than yours
2) Our Oracle/MC grab is faster than yours
3) Your Oracle/Monarchy grab is faster than our Oracle/MC grab
17.58
sianist: so far so argeed
mig: Alright
You made us the offer of letting you have the Oracle, claiming to get it faster than us
So we wouldn't jointly lose out
Correct?
sianist: yeah
mig: We are making you that exact same offer
17.59
With compensation included
In the form of non-competes
And we're willing to discuss other things as well
sianist: and i'm also offering compensations so same-smae
mig: Except our completion time is faster than yours
Which was the argument you made in your message to us
sianist: depends on if i'm going for MC or not
18.00
mig: Your objective is MC, right?
You stated so earlier
If we forfeit Oracle, you want to take MC
sianist: i stated that i idealy would go for MC
mig: Okay
So would we
18.01
Which concessions do you find fair for conceding us the Oracle?
sianist: as said ... both GLH's
(Lighthouse and Libary)
mig: GLH and GLib?
We would agree to that
18.02
We would agree to throwing in Colossus on top, if that matters any
It's useful if you have GLH
18.03
sianist: so ... you're willing to give me a noncomplete on GLH, GLib and Colossus?
(just to be clear)
mig: Yes
We'd be happy if you were willing to pitch us Stonehenge in exchange
But we would agree to that deal
Well
sianist: for letting you get MC for Oracle that is?
18.04
mig: Hmm, I would prefer to consult slowcheetah
But we get along okay, he'll forgive me
Yes
sianist: Stonehenge is open for all
18.05
mig: We can live with not getting a non-compete on Stonehenge
It's a personal favourite of mine, but won't kill me
18.06
sianist: but yeah ... i could argee to those terms
mig: Do you wish to review my plan for getting Oracle with Monarchy sooner than your planned date? It's basically chopping
We have 3 workers ready
sianist: i'm still wondering if i should go for it or if religion spread can cover it
18.07
thanks for that info
mig: We ran lots and lots of plans on the Oracle
BW came out ahead each time
18.08
My plans sucked horribly at first, and I was just about to concede to slowcheetah's plans
Then I realized my mistake and came up with one that improved his time by 4t
sianist: good for you
18.09
mig: Do we have a deal then?
sianist: yeah
mig: Let's see if I remember right
18.10
1) You give us a non-compete on Oracle
2) We give you a non-compete on GLib, GLH and Colossus
Anything else?
sianist: looks about right
mig: Do you remember how long our current NAP lasts?
18.11
sianist: t30
mig: Do you wish to extend it?
sianist: try me again when we're at t25 ... want to meet Kuro first
18.12
mig: Sounds good
I could offer you map info for an extension
Do you have bronze location yet?
18.13
sianist: i have horse location
mig: We have both
Wait
I mean copper location, of course
sianist: copper/bronze ... same-smae
mig: I suppose you don't need copper quite as bad
But still nice to have
18.14
sianist: anyways ... off for fixing a diner ... i except save to be at me when i'm back
mig: I can ship it off right now
sec
18.15
Sent
In summary, I argued that he made us an offer that he himself was willing to accept in a better version. Our Monarchy grab is faster than his, and our MC grab is faster than his. I think he was bluffing about grabbing Monarchy, as he eventually agreed to a deal where he got non-competes on other wonders. At one point he stated that he was unwilling to let us get MC with Oracle, when he'd asked us to let him do that exact thing in earlier messages. I responded to that asking if he was actively sabotaging us, and he seemed to back down a little. I don't know who got the better end of the deal here, but I'm happy that we get to continue with our Oracle plans.
Given that we are no longer in as much of a hurry to get the Oracle, I think we should reconsider the location of our expansion. W of the ivory is by far the best location for getting the Oracle up fast, but that's no longer our top priority. I'm willing to think very far outside the box, probably to the point of giving slowcheetah more gray hairs
Ideas:
1) Settle the wheat down by the centre.
2) Settle NE of the ivory
3) Build Oracle in the capital, forge elsewhere
Do you think there's any risk of Sian going for Pyramids? I didn't overstate our interest in it, and he didn't state any interest in it. With 4 forests chopped and 6 base hammers per turn, it'd take him 28 turns. I think he'd sacrifice way too much in doing so (especially after going off path to pursue an aborted Oracle), but he might want to play spoilsports. We would probably be able to catch him by his graphs before then. Do you want to start a small C&D operation on Sian?
I think we should build the oracle outside of the capital (mainly so we dont have to build a monument somewhere). I like the look of the NE ivory site a lot .
The NE site might be a red herring for us. It has 3 nice resources, but we won't be able to develop any of them for a while. If we pass on the W ivory site now, we might be able to put the NE site to good use a little later.
He may even think that he can beat us to Oracle (with Monarchy grab) and accept. We have absolutely no interest in building the Oracle in the capital and wasting it on Monarchy, but it's a credible bluff. We have turn advantage and chopping advantage on him, those factors easily surpass him being Industrious and having a 2t head start.
