oledavy Wrote:Isn't this a bit of a no brainer? How do you figure out how many hammers the corporation will produce anyway?
Yeah, it is pretty evident that I should fort that tile. The only instance would be if rounding keeps that one last resource from adding anything (+0.75h per resource).
pindicator Wrote:Yeah, it is pretty evident that I should fort that tile. The only instance would be if rounding keeps that one last resource from adding anything (+0.75h per resource).
Out of curiosity, were it allowed, how much would Sid's Sushi have been worth to you in terms of food?
Drama / Diplomacy was front and center this turn. Sounds like Gaspadore is trying to sway Regoarrarr into attacking me with them. So Rego and I had yet another chat about where the game is going. It's a bit length, so I'm putting the full thing in spoilers, but the gist of it goes:
Rego is bummed cause I'm kicking his butt
gaspadore is trying to get Rego on his side of a 2v1
I offered Rego the option to back out, but he says he likes working with me better
Rego's said he was "bending over backwards" to include me when he was in first place as if he's trying to guilt trip me. Oh yeah, right buddy. Like I demanded charity from you
Since he wants to work with me, we discuss tactics for attacking Gaspadore. In the end, it's decided that I will send grenadiers after him since we think he'll be going rifles. I toy with just sending ships and destroyers but he wants me to send ground forces
He told me that oil is 2SE of my capital; I'm forting that tile since no city is working it, so that the oil is hooked up as soon as I research Sci Meth
The full chat:
Pindicator: do we need to threaten gaspadore into taking their turn?
Regoarrarr: he's waiting on diplo from me
Pindicator: gotcha
they don't want you to attack i bet
Regoarrarr: but i'm swamped on work today
and don't have a lot of time
plus i need to talk to you
Pindicator: ok, when you have time we can talk
btw, i may not be around much for the weekend, my dad's birthday is tomorrow and i'll be visiting
Regoarrarr: basically we need to figure out what we're doing
i've been feeling pretty bummed about this game lately
i felt like i was in a pretty solid position
so i don't know where you came from
with your super-charged economy
Pindicator: i am a bit curious to see it when its over
well... i don't want to be the only one enjoying this either.
Regoarrarr: well
i guess i'm wanting to make sure you're still on board with our alliance
i felt like i kind of bent over backwards to include you when i was "running away" with the game
such as lending you gold interest free
not freaking out when you sold berzerks to gasp so he could extort cities out of me to fuel your taj-stealing run
etc.
so i'm hopeful that now that the shoe is on the other foot
Pindicator: which is why i'm committed to helping you take on gaspadore
Regoarrarr: that you will reciprocate
Pindicator: even if i only get a fraction of his cities
but... and this is not be of benefit at all to me, but i'll suggest it anyway:
if you think it's better that you go on your own then we can discuss that too
i'd prefer not to, but i dont' want to take out the enjoyment for everyone else
Regoarrarr: nah
i don't think i'd like that
i've had much more fun working with you than i would expect to have with gasp
nothing against gasp but i've enjoyed our collaboration
Pindicator: cool, i've enjoyed it as well
of course we have our bumps, but i think we work things out rather than losing our tempers
Regoarrarr: so i don't think that i will have destroyers in time
Pindicator: after last turn i know i will, so i will definitely send some east since you need them
Regoarrarr: so what's the plan
i think i'd prefer if we take out gasp first and then both take out yuri
possibly gifting cities / compensation to make sure we're both taken care of
the reason for this
is that i'm worried if it's me vs. gasp (with you minorly supporting)
and you vs. yuri (with me minorly supporting)
both going on at roughly the same time
that a) gasp is much more militarily / technologically superior
and b) he's likely to be more spiteful
since i'll have directly turned down his offer
Pindicator: yeah
so you will get my undivided attention on gaspadore from the start of the war through t160
since my NAP with yuri goes that long
all those drafted zerkers are going to be upgraded, and i'll be streaming out destroyers
Regoarrarr: man cr2 amphib rifles
Pindicator: i figure the batch of destroyers will go east to help you, and then i'll bring the second wave to
sadly most will be CR1
Regoarrarr: oh well THOSE won't be useful at all
Pindicator: lol
so, do you need land support as well? or only destroyers?
Regoarrarr: i'm not sure
Pindicator: how about i bring a pair of transports over as well
just to be sure
Regoarrarr: i think #1 priority is ensuring that his galleys / galleons
can not sink my moai city on turn 1
Pindicator: yeah
Regoarrarr: since he is unlikely to have anything stronger than galleons
Pindicator: so maybe you should head to rifling and upgrade those LBs?
Regoarrarr: well he's likely to go to rifling also
Pindicator: true
Regoarrarr: yeah i have rep parts so only 1t from rifles
should be able to just blockade his cities
with transports and destroyers
(not the game mechanic)
Pindicator: heh, if he's going rifling i may go for amphibious 'nades
Regoarrarr: but if there's a DD on every path between his cities and mine
then it ain't happenin
plus you can declare war before him
you could even take the city/ies
Pindicator: it'll probably be cleaner for you to take them. can i gift a city in revolt?
Regoarrarr: not sure
are you saying long term it would be cleaner for me
Pindicator: and sorry, i do not know what you mean by a DD
Regoarrarr: or in the war
that's krill-speak
Pindicator: for the war
Regoarrarr: DD = destroyer
Pindicator: ah
Regoarrarr: what do you mean it would be cleaner for me then
i don't get what you're saying
Pindicator: i guess when i think about it, i only see it aesthetically cleaner. which is a pretty silly reason
Regoarrarr: so if he can declare war on t146
Pindicator: so yeah, i can bring some troops and declare
Regoarrarr: then you declare on t144 or 145
Pindicator: hmm... i will need some machine gunners
Regoarrarr: take that city, destroy his fleet, etc
i guess it's not the end of the world if you raze it either
Pindicator: well, i don't think i can get destroyers that fast
at the earliest i'll be able to finish the first on t143, and that's if i 1-turn everything
the tech is pretty likely, but the production is less so
Regoarrarr: what turn are we on?
Pindicator: 140
Regoarrarr: oh
so eot140 railroad, eot141 combustion
or do you still need steel
Pindicator: no, i have steel
eot142 sci meth
Regoarrarr: oh for the oil
Pindicator: 143 hook up the well and start DDs
Regoarrarr: do you have the workers in place?
you could fort the oil
Pindicator: i'll have workers ready for it
Regoarrarr: if you fort the oil, thenf rigate in queue 142 will auto-upgrade?
Pindicator: oh... that's a good point
what tile is the oil on again?
Regoarrarr: let me see if i can find my thread
i gotta tell you, having a broken backspace key is QUITE annoying
Pindicator: oh yeah
Regoarrarr: it's E-SE of the western cows
SE of my capital
but i moved
not sure if you did or not
Pindicator: i should have moved...
Regoarrarr: so i think 2SE of your cap?
Pindicator: yeah, i will fort that tile right away
a grassland tile, right?
Regoarrarr: yes
1N of my furs
not sure how exact all our islands are
Pindicator: i think teh starting ones are pretty exact
Regoarrarr: so with enough overflow / whipping / etc you might even be able to squeeze one out EOT142
but that would probably be tricky
Pindicator: how many hamemrs are they?
nm, i'm looknig it up
Regoarrarr: 134 is my guess
Pindicator: yeah, that's right. and i'll have drydocks + forge, so i will need 77 base hammers to get it
that will be tricky
Regoarrarr: well if you already have 62/63 in a frigate
or whatever the number is
then 1-whip it
in a high hammer city
though really
a destroyer early isn't as useful
don't forget
what we REALLY need
is galleons full of CR zerkers
Pindicator: oh, i already have a good stack of those
Regoarrarr: so that could happen whenever
Pindicator: yeah, i just need to upgrade those guys to rifle and/or grenadier
Regoarrarr: but you don't have rifling yet right?
Pindicator: nah, but i have RP
Regoarrarr: yeah me too
Pindicator: i figure DDs are the bigger priority
Regoarrarr: well with airships and frigates
galleons are toast
Pindicator: true
Regoarrarr: it's hard to plan much
Pindicator: well, then i can go for Infantry as well
Regoarrarr: when the turns go so fast
Pindicator: yeah, it is
Regoarrarr: i really th ink i need to hit those cities / his fleet first
i mean he's got like 12 or so zerks around
(froms omewhre )
so if those get upgraded to rifles
that's going to be tough to take
(hold)
Pindicator: that makes me think i should get destroyers
Regoarrarr: but if you can't get them till later
Pindicator: even a handful can keep him from advancing
Regoarrarr: you take a galleon or 3 of rifles
raze the city
Pindicator: it is your front, so i will go with the strategy you think is best up there
Regoarrarr: what doe smil sci require?
just chemistry?
Pindicator: just chem
ship o' da line?
Regoarrarr: what are they str12?
or 10
they're slower i think
Pindicator: yeah, they are slower
i think they are 8 with +50% to frigates
Regoarrarr: or aren't they 8 but bonus vs. frigates?
jinx!
Pindicator: darn!
i wouldn't do mil sci for SODL, but maybe for gren if he's defending with rifles
do you think gasp will attack at the first moment?
Regoarrarr: i don't know
Pindicator: his power hasn't moved at all since the war
Regoarrarr: yeah
his email to me from this morning
was basically
Pindicator: and he's doing economic techs
Regoarrarr: we need to know what you're doing
to know what to tech during this GA
so when it ell him that i won't be signing a renewed nap
i'd assume he'd move to rifles and nationalism
Pindicator: yeah
well, if you do that then i will go mil sci and upgrade my zerkers to grenadiers
Regoarrarr: before combustion?
or after
Pindicator: depends on when you want to attack
Regoarrarr: ok
Pindicator: sounds like i need to do it before
Regoarrarr: will you be around this evening?
Pindicator: yeah
Regoarrarr: yeah
okay
i'll tell gasp
and maybe he'll have the save to me tonight
Pindicator: ok
i'm gonna run do some errands, so i'll catch you later tonight
Regoarrarr: okay
Later that evening...
Regoarrarr: hey
Pindicator: hola
Regoarrarr: there you are
Pindicator: did it show me as being on half an hour ago?
Regoarrarr: no
Pindicator: ah, i was wondering cause i checked my email with my tablet
i actually had an employer respond to my resume today, crazy as that sounds
Regoarrarr: what field are you in?
Pindicator: nothing specialized. i had been supervising a call center, but i'd prefer office work to customer service
Regoarrarr: sure
one of the guys i work with used to be a call center supervisor
Pindicator: lot of that out there, i just want to branch out a bit if i can
Regoarrarr: so what were we talking
about
Pindicator: types of employment i thought :-)
Regoarrarr: heh
i ment earlier
involving galleons and destroyers and grenadiers
Pindicator: yes, what composition do we want to hit gaspadore with and when
Regoarrarr: and where
Pindicator: well, i assume most of the action is going to happen on your end of things
Regoarrarr: yeah
Pindicator: i do plan on hitting the islands closer to me, but that will be a secondary force to what i'm sending your way
Regoarrarr: so how soon can you get a few galleons of grens to zul mashar?
Pindicator: i'll open up the save
if i left next turn it would take 5 turns to reach it by galleon
let me make sure i can research and upgrade along the way...
well, if i can do mil sci with just overflow then it won't slow me down
otherwise i'll have to wait a turn to raise cash & upgrade
Regoarrarr: would you still be in your borders in 2t?
(to be able to upgrade while enroute)
Pindicator: yeah, but units on boats have to be in a city in order to upgrade
Regoarrarr: oh
Pindicator: i learned that one in my first war against yuris
so i'll need to upgrade them as i pass through FCA
Regoarrarr: right
Pindicator: i'm going to bring 4 galleons-full
i wonder if i can upgrade in your cities
Regoarrarr: any frigates?
Pindicator: i only have 1 right now
that will be able to join for certain
i may be able to get 2 more out of AAA and CAA
definitely if i wait a turn and come in on t146
Regoarrarr: so if a frigate or 2 can park SW of zabrajin
and zulmashar is captured / razed
that should be enough
i should be able to have recon to see where all the relevant units are
Pindicator: ok, found zabrajin
can you send screenshots of the area?
i'd like to see his troop composition there
Regoarrarr: there's nothing there now
explorer and cat in zulmashar
2 num cavs in zabaraajin
axe in sian's old capital
axe in broken isle
i think he thought you were going to attack yuris
and he had his troops over there
Pindicator: hmmm... he is on engineering as of last turn
he could have chemistry by the time i get there
Regoarrarr: he doesn't have engineering this turn
Pindicator: that's good
Regoarrarr: i couldn't tell what he teched
Pindicator: t139 shows him as Engineering(1)
Regoarrarr: he "can research" CS, DR, aest, banking, physics and engineering
Pindicator: gunpowder
he researched gunpowder
Regoarrarr: oh
i thought he had that already
Pindicator: he was on it before but swapped
hmmm... he is going for frigates
Regoarrarr: looks like gunpowder for yuri too
Pindicator: i'm less certain about sending just 1 or 2 frigates in now
Regoarrarr: i bet gasp is going rfor rifles
you can always start sending them
and pull back if he has too many troops
i'll be able to see what he has
Pindicator: i could have several destroyers there by t145 if i went that route
althogh i like the idea of going grenadiers. how often do we see those guys get any play at RB?
Regoarrarr: good poitn
go grenadiers!
Pindicator: that settles it, screw destros
Regoarrarr: lol
Pindicator: oh
can i ask for 1 airship? i'm going to want to keep an eye on my west while i send troops to your side of the globe
Regoarrarr: sure
i will send it there
where do you want it
Pindicator: what range do they have for recon?
Regoarrarr: 8
Pindicator: and they show a 6x6 gride?
grid?
Regoarrarr: they show distanc 8
i think
Pindicator: oh, so you can see 15 away?
Regoarrarr: hmm
Pindicator: let's send it to FHA
Regoarrarr: you can see 8
Pindicator: oh wait, the recon range isn't a square though, just the sight
Regoarrarr: i'll gift it next turn
right
Pindicator: how far is the recon range?
Regoarrarr: so it's in FHA
Pindicator: that's okay
Regoarrarr: so it can see to 1E of ollayantambo
Pindicator: i'll rebase it if i need to
i have sight of yuris' lands, i just wnat to watch that narrow strip of gaspadore land
malakajin, zentabra, zuldrak, etc
Regoarrarr: right
ok
so i guess i'll end turn now
unless there's anything else you want to check
before you get the save
Pindicator: can't think of anything, if you've already made your moves
Regoarrarr: yeah
save sent
Pindicator: okie dokie
Regoarrarr: i'm going to need to catch up on some c&d here
Pindicator: sure
Regoarrarr: but right now i think i'm going to sign off
Pindicator: all right
tomorrow i may not be available, i'm leaving for the coast at 10am PST and it's my dad's bday so i don't know what my evening will be
but during the afternoon i should be on a little
no tech for you?
Honestly, avoiding destroyers is stupid. This isn't pbem17, and control of the seas is going to matter a LOT more than it did in that game. You CANNOT advance forces on this map without naval equality (at least); there are no land routes. So if Gaspadore is going frigates, why shouldn't we wait a few turns to make sure we have destroyers before plunging in?
But like I said, it's his front and I will defer to his strategy there. So I am going to send him 3 galleons of CR grenadiers along with 5 or so frigates and they will harass and burn cities wherever I can. I will burn every city he does not explicitly tell me to keep. All this "shoe is on the other foot" guilt-trip crap just makes me want to leave him high and dry.
Meanwhile, I researched Railroad this last turn. I could have put the slider at 0% and just gotten it with overflow, I've accrued so much. I thought about it too; every berserker -> grenadier upgrade is going to cost me 83g. 9 of them will be 747g. I'm also going to wait to attack until turn 145. Why turn 145? Because that allows my tech path to go like so:
t140 - Railroad
t141 - Combustion
t142 - Mil Sci
t143 - Sci Meth; Troops in FCA are upgraded and move and ship out
t144 - Galleons reach staging tile
t145 - Attack!
So maybe I'm just a little paranoid, but my admiral akhbar voice is yelling "It's a Trap!" over and over again. Rego's NAP with Gaspadore ends t146, so Rego is paranoid about Gaspadore getting first attack. I also realize, if Rego was planning to stab me, this would be a perfect way to go about doing it. Get me to attack gaspadore with my forces out of position, and then swoop into my core. I don't think Gaspadore would be on board, because why would he want to be the guinea pig like that? And where are Gaspadore's troops?
oledavy Wrote:Out of curiosity, were it allowed, how much would Sid's Sushi have been worth to you in terms of food?
Ah, only if... I'll just have to settle for founding Mining, Inc next turn.
Oh, I forgot to mention why this was a landmark turn. Two reasons:
1. I passed Rego for #1 in total population via the demographics screen. That's nice, but I'm up more than 30 citizens by now so it's not so huge a thing.
2. I passed Rego for #1 in total beakers. That happened a lot faster than I thought it would. He has 39,565 total and after Railroad I am now at 42,864.
Things are looking nice right now. But these next 5-10 turns will be tricky.
With Railroad finished, I finally got to use that Great Engineer I've been saving up.
We immediately switched builds to an executive, and we'll whip it to completion next turn. I'll probably put the exec in New Deal and have my capital pump out executives for a while. Or maybe in AAA; that's a more secondary city.
So I realized this turn that my frigates being made in FAP and FCC would not be able to blockade the city of Zabra'Jin by turn 145, like Rego asked me to. So I brought back a caravel last turn, and this turn I splurged 80 gold on upgrading him. He can reach the tile SW of Zabra on turn 145, when i declare on Gaspadore.
With admiral akhbar still ringing in my ears, I queued up a number of machine guns throughout the empire. They were mostly put in vulnerable cities; places where Gaspadore can attack me with no warning. We'll whip them on turn 144 or 145, depending on the city. But I should keep an eye on Rego's units as well.
Rego did gift me an airship this turn, so I'm less sure he is going to stab me. If he is, then he is selling it well by giving me a unit. I had him move the airship to FHA, but in retrospect it will do better in SSA, so I will transfer in there next turn.
Next technology on the list:
I realized a little late that this was going to obsolete my whales. So one or two cities will fall into unhappiness next turn, but I've already started them on a market. It won't be too awful. Next turn we'll take Military Science as cheaply as we can, or with enough to upgrade the berserkers we're sending his direction.
At the end of the turn we got a Great Merchant. So I now have the 3 great people needed for my next golden age, and there are still 4 turns left in this one.
I don't think I will fire off my 4th golden age straight-away. I will probably move into war civics at the end of the current GA (HR, Nationalism, Slavery, Free Market, Theology) and wait to trigger my next golden age. Or maybe it's better to storm through technologies and roll Yuris125 with advanced troops after t160. We'll see.
Yuris picked up Philosophy and Gaspadore picked Civil Service. I would guess both are headed towards Nationalism and Rifles.
Hey, when you're done with that rockin economy, can I maybe borrow it for a few turns? I'd really like to 1t a dozen techs in some of my games!
(I'll return it undamaged, I promise!)
Thanks! This has been a big econ game for half the teams and a big war game for the other half. I played Turn 142 tonight but had the notorious Screenshot Failed message. But the economy is out of roll-over steam: i picked up Military Science while running at 50% and also added 700g. I'll have 1,100g next turn and will turn 12 berserkers into CR grenadiers (i decided to add that 4th galleon after all).
Internationally, the world hit 1,000 total citizens at the end of the turn. I have 315 under the banner of the Viking empire. What else? Gaspadore researched Nationalism and i imagine he'll switch civics at the end of his GA. Well, maybe Rifling (edit: for me) would have been a better choice, since he likely won't have rifles in time for the attack. But this way i can still build Berserkers out of HOLC while i tech towards Assembly Line and Infantry.
Well, since it doesn't look like Rego is going to play a turn today, I decided to do my best Ceiliazul imitation and get some graphs up in my thread Actually, I had a few hours of thinking today, during the ride from my the coast back to home, and was trying to think of a fair way to graph out the technology rate. GNP graph isn't a good gauge because it includes things like culture and EP and doesn't include technologies people receive from bulbs and free bonuses.
So I started with a simple graph of total beakers researched by turn. Some of the early turns may be a little off, as I'm not 100% sure I have the correct technology order down. But as you can see, that doesn't matter much because with the recent growth, it's kind of hard to see what happens during the first 100 turns.
About all you can tell here is that Rego has been winning in total beakers until very recently, and that Sian last researched beakers on turn 120. But how can we get a graph to show the turn-by-turn comparison?
What I thought up was to create a graph that shows the percent of the average number of beakers each player has on a turn-by-turn basis. (I guess this isn't much different than showing the percent of the total number of beakers, except we're dividing by the number of players in the game.) So this graph shows the relative lead (or deficit) each player has in total beakers as it relates to the average. So if someone is at 0% for a turn, then their total beakers researched by that turn is the same as the average for all players. If they are at -20% then their total beakers are 20% less the average for the game on that turn.
Some interesting things from this game:
Regoarrarr grabbing the Oracle on t57 gave him a very large lead.
Sian's Great Engineer bulb got him the beaker lead for a few turns: from t73 - t76.
You can see Yuris125 keeping pace with Regoarrarr until about turn 50, and then slowly falls farther and farther behind the pace. I would say that's some clear evidence of over-expansion to the point of detriment for his research rate.
You can see just how excellent an opening Regoarrarr played here. He has had the lead in beakers for most of the game.
Despite the war, Gaspadore maintains an average research rate until turn 110. But his sliding downward after turn 110 is probably more to do with Rego & my beaker rates shooting upward than his research rate dropping.
The last 7 turns have been very good for me. But for about 20 turns (65-85) I was the worst in the game for total beakers.
Well, Sian was invaded and started losing cities around turn 84. If he hadn't the impending (and rather obvious) invasion of Gaspadore to deal with it would have been a different game for him. You would have to imagine that having Pyramids and being Creative would have gone a long way for sustaining a good technology rate.
So I think the lesson to take from Sian is not to lose a war.
![[Image: pbem26-turn140-sidsushi.jpg]](http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp323/jwmoore04/CivFanatics/PBEM26/pbem26-turn140-sidsushi.jpg)
![[Image: pbem26-turn141-mininginc.jpg]](http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp323/jwmoore04/CivFanatics/PBEM26/pbem26-turn141-mininginc.jpg)
![[Image: pbem26-turn141-frigateupgrade.jpg]](http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp323/jwmoore04/CivFanatics/PBEM26/pbem26-turn141-frigateupgrade.jpg)
![[Image: pbem26-turn141-combustionnext.jpg]](http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp323/jwmoore04/CivFanatics/PBEM26/pbem26-turn141-combustionnext.jpg)
![[Image: goonies-chunk.jpg]](http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2007/10/23/goonies-chunk.jpg)
Actually, I had a few hours of thinking today, during the ride from my the coast back to home, and was trying to think of a fair way to graph out the technology rate. GNP graph isn't a good gauge because it includes things like culture and EP and doesn't include technologies people receive from bulbs and free bonuses.![[Image: pbem26-turn142-totalbeakerschart.jpg]](http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp323/jwmoore04/CivFanatics/PBEM26/pbem26-turn142-totalbeakerschart.jpg)
![[Image: pbem26-turn142-beakerspercentofaverage.jpg]](http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp323/jwmoore04/CivFanatics/PBEM26/pbem26-turn142-beakerspercentofaverage.jpg)
