The Orc Clan: Following the Princess Rule

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]Exploiting the Loopholes[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]Sareln of the Elves[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Green"]To Sareln

Well that depends on what you mean by NAP. I certainly think you don't want to go to war with me and wish to continue to find ways to work together (make me last longer and hurt the vampires.) But do I think you are being aggressive? Yes. So in a sense I see the NAP as bent and not broken until one of us declares it so.

For instance, this turn I had to declare war on you to remove a road that connected us together. I didn't want to have to do it, the loss of trade was noticeable, but I suspected Mackoti could hit me next turn if I left the road intact. Does this mean we are at war? I sent along a cease fire straight away. Should I consider the NAP broken because you are hosting a military force in your land and letting it use your roads? Especially as I can't Ring of fire in your lands without declaring on you... Or should you consider the NAP broken because I destroyed our road connection to protect myself from said military force?

I understand what your intention was, you saw no victory in the alliance fighting the vampires, especially with you being on the front line. Instead you sought victory in peace while still damaging the vampires, the cost being merely the alliance. But that doesn't mean we can't find new ways to work together. I, for instance, find myself in need of recon information on Vampire movements untill I get my own hawk net up. If you wish to gain from Orcs and Vampires fighting then surely you wish for a more... even battle? I hope you haven't bound yourself up in agreements and trades that stop you from helping an old ally in none military ways. If I don't survive this first wave then I have no more units and Mackoti will gobble up my own empire doubling his size.

At the moment fighting favours Mackoti. I'm trying to whip some stuff to replace the lost stonewardens but its not looking good for holding out. It will all come down to who hits whom first, Sprectre Spam vs Collateral Ring of fire. So its all about good recon information and movement. Mackoti has the best of both those factors.

I too have valued our team work so far and hope we can find a way to continue to work together.

Ravus - the Red Wizard[/COLOR]

Going to send this off I think. It seems to flow better now and hits all the buttons I want. Balances subtlety and the blunt parts read as more "open" then "forceful"

Hopefully I've read the situation correctly and Sareln will agree to give something easily given. Recon information costs him little but benefits myself enormously. I'm pinning my hopes on Mackoti having demanded things that would help against me in the present while not asking for limitations from Sareln against future actions. (I.E trading the map mackoti traded to sareln to me, this was a good sign in my favour.)

[Ravus Sol]

save its with me need some time for me to play.

looks like I was right, I'm taking this to mean that he could have hit me If I didn't pillage the road. Now that his plans derailed he wants an extra day to re-plan.

Okay serious question for the lurkers, how many times should I let this sort of "The turn is complicated so I will hold it for a day" stuff happen before I speak up?

Not to be picky but it's getting very annoying. Is this just me? How much does this happen in other games? I don't want to make a big deal if this sort of stuff is accepted...

[Tasunke]

and a lurker answers

Personally I think it shouldn't be allowed because he is the "tall poppy" of the group ...

but at least he is being honest about it. I see how its annoying and we should definitely discourage it ... but somehow I feel its better than simply holding the save and not say anything about it -bar RL intrusions of course-

I dunno, I think in this particular instance ... with Sareln possibly breaking a NaP (at least in part), and Mackoti being the leader, that I think you could have an argument that Mackoti should not be allowed to gain this 'additional advantage' on you. Regardless of how people feel about Armageddon points..

[Ilios]

Considering Mackoti is in about 27 games here at RB, I can imagine he'd like to take his time with crucial war turns for this game. As long as he doesn't keep the save for days on end, I personally wouldn't mind.

[Mardoc]

lOkay serious question for the lurkers, how many times should I let this sort of "The turn is complicated so I will hold it for a day" stuff happen before I speak up?

Not to be picky but it's getting very annoying. Is this just me? How much does this happen in other games? I don't want to make a big deal if this sort of stuff is accepted...

I've done it myself, and I like to believe I'm one of the more reliable turnplayers on RB. Usually it only lasts while the war is in doubt, or there's urgent diplomacy. I do understand that it's annoying, but mistakes are less forgiving during war.

[Ravus Sol]

I'm... Alive?

Okay first off, thank you to the lurkers for your words of wisdom, I need to suck up people taking extra turns, It's my own damn fault for causing chaos and it's probably only annoying me because I believe myself to be on the loosing side of the upcoming war :neenernee

Second, Why the HELL am I alive? As most players will have realised I stopped updating until I could determine If I was going to be fighting a loosing war, a defensive war or a potential turn around. If you find yourself in a loosing war you play along but you start drafting up a last update to wrap things up.

I was honestly expecting to have to start drafting one up, I'd already planned out some last words on the players and plots.



This was where I left things. I had pillaged the road getting myself an extra turn. Mackoti had taken advantage of the natural Pass or Moria between the sea and lake to stop any chance of counter attack while positioning to hit me next turn.

My Forces:
1 x Rantine
6 x Diseased Corpse
15 x Ritualists
1 x Stonewarden
1 x Axeman
12 x Warriors
2 x Thanes
4 x Shamen
1 x Archer

Vampire Forces:
4 x Royal Guard
4 x Chariot
4 x Moroi
19 x Vampire
4 x Cultist

Don't get me wrong, I managed to scrounge up some good defence, the trick with the road pillage got me an extra turn that I used well. Plus while the Vampire promotions are all about mobility and summoning my own have been channeled into combat and hill defence.

The Pass of Moria helps the Vampires, but the fact that my city is 1 off the sea helps me by putting me out of reach of cultist tidal waves.

But with a 19 Spectre spam opening I think the Vampires could have broken through. I was expecting Mackoti to have used his extra day to try and diligently match up the best attacker vs defender to minimize loses.

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="5"]Turn 151: Mystery of life[/SIZE]

This was what I found today.



As you can see Mackoti retreated and left the Moria pass wide open this time! With so many units pouring in it was an obvious choice to sacrifice a 3 move Ritualist to get eyes into Elvish lands.

What I found was strange. I was fearing Mackoti circling round to the east to attack over the Misty Mountains but instead he is just holed up in Moria. Obviously Mackoti did the math and didn't like the amount of lossess it would take to break Lonely Mountain. But why pull back and not just suck it up?

A part of me thinks he has more reinforcements coming. He certainly has a high enough power graph. Another part of me hopes that we are looking at MAD in action. Mutually assured destruction would only favour the elves right now. It's why I sent off the message previously mentioned in this thread. For those wondering, I got no response and Sareln did NOT accept the cease fire offered... Without knowing the agreements between Sareln and Mackoti I can only speculate on the undertones here;
Did they have a Defensive pact that I sparked off? Is Sareln staying at war for brownie points with Mackoti?

Either way Mackoti is unwilling to suffer the losses. Either he has reinforcements inbound or is trying to leverage Sareln into helping. Sareln does have 10 Priests of Leaves in Moria which combined with their potential tigers is a sizeable little army...

Oh well I did send a message warning him of harbouring Vampires in his cities.



Another expendable Ritualist is sent out, both were low on exp and fortification. But Ritualists show their strength and with just two of them I knock down the health of everything in that city to near 60% buying me more time for little loss.

The new names are just another attempt at mind games. Reminding people that any unit with the Ashen Veil religion becomes a fane for krill can't hurt. I also have shamans in Lonely Mountain that will be upgraded to Entropy when the Bronze wielding Vampires get close. Entropy magic users also create fanes in death.



I also fire bomb the Cultists now on my shoreline. But this time I use a attack and retreat option. I don't particularly understand the logic in sending out the Cultists. Perhaps in the hope that I would be forced to split my defenders? Unfortunatly for the Vamps nearly all my cities near that inland sea are off the coast. Only the White Mountain city is coastal and thats WAY Westward. I easily have enough troops incoming to keep an eye on these guys, but forcing them to heal can only help.

This particular move is worrisome, because so far Mackoti has made no mistakes in both his empire and warfare. He got a map from Sareln so he should be able to see his Cultists would have little effect or threat in the inland sea.

Now if they had been sent East and circled the misty mountains I have three coastal cities in that area all low on defense that could be threatened easily. Again, Mackoti has the map and should know this. It's why the work boat in that area is playing sentry.

Either way in terms of units I easily make up on the loss of two Ritualists. Plus on top of what I gained this turn I have 4 Diseased Corpses and 4 more Ritualists incoming next turn. Not counting Warriors. Positioned so that they can reinforce Broken Entwash if the Cultists continue to advance.

My Forces:
1 x Rantine
8 x Diseased Corpse
16 x Ritualists
1 x Stonewarden
2 x Axeman
15 x Warriors
2 x Thanes
3 x Shamen
1 x Archer

Vampire Forces:
4 x Royal Guard
4 x Chariot
3 x Moroi
19 x Vampire
5 x Cultist

Elvish Forces:
1 x hawk
3 x Warrior
10 x Priest of Leaves

You will notice that the Vampires lost a Moroi, that was because one of them was scouting the Misty Mountains to the East, Yet this turn it is gone. My hope is that it's not linking up with Reinforcements to attack on two fronts. Mackoti also gained a Cultist. Perhaps indicating that he too is getting a constant trickle of reinforcements and not a second mega-stack. Interestingly None of the Vampire Hawks were in the city of Moria. Perhaps scouting out somewhere else?

The Elves are obviously keeping an eye on the war, but which side they will jump in on, if any, is impossible to know while Sareln stays quiet. I will have to try sending another message, apologising for Elves getting caught in my attack as collateral damage.

My own attempts to get hawks quickly splutter a bit, While hunting is in I don't get enough money at 100% gold to rush the Hunting Lodge next turn. Meaning it will now be 2 MORE turns to complete the lodge and then another one to get the hawks.

In other Foreign news, Mackoti gets ANOTHER golden age. Krill gets a Great Engineer. No events about the death of either horseman.

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="6"]One last time, for old friends[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]Sareln of the Elves[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Orange"]Dear Neighbour Sareln

I received no reply from you or a response to the cease fire offer so I'm afraid events have continued with us being at "war" without myself knowing if this is merely for show or serious.

The Pillaging of the road in your land bought myself an extra turn for the loss of Rosier. Mackoti easily repositioned and could have hit me merely a turn later. I honestly expected to play this turn fighting a defensive war inside my own borders. Yet today I find that Mackoti has retreated. I pushed a Ritualist into your lands to find out where he fled too and found him camped out in Moria. I apologise for the Collateral damage that I did to your Priests but Mackoti is my enemy and he is hiding in your own cities. You didn't lose anybody but you will be healing for a few turns. More Importantly Mackoti will be healing for a few turns.

I still find myself in need of Recon information to fight this war, Especially with Mackoti's new Golden Age indicating a potential second wave incoming. Unless you have something yet to reveal I don't see why we can't reopen communications.

Ravus, The Red Wizard[/COLOR]

This is what I plan to send later tonight. Might need some polishing, especially with the line "Unless you have something yet to reveal". But in the end Sareln has made his new position clear by his actions, It's only his motives and hidden agendas that need clarification. When things are like this i'm not sure on how much subtlety is needed.

[Ravus Sol]

[SIZE="5"]Future Outlook[/SIZE]
A few more turns of things like this and I might have to start planning some serious counter attacks. Best not to make assumptions untill I get recon via Sareln or hawks but the basic Diplomatic and Military nature can be summerised:

Mackoti
Needs to be nerfed. I can't support a War against him If at War with the elves. Killing his stack while it is in Elvish lands is complicated. Best plan would be to eliminate the stack while diplomatically getting Sareln to go completely isolated closing borders with both sides forcing them to fight elsewhere and cutting off passage between us.

Even is this happens due to our past I don't see us coming to any sort of viable peace. If I kill enough units I could negotiate a cease fire but only If I can paint another person as a target. If Krill becomes a power in the West this is doable. Sareln remains a mystery as either vampire ally or threat. When the Elves and Vampires signed peace Mackoti had the choice to attack Amelia or myself. The fact that he attacked myself indicates he either sees Amelia as a none-threat or potential ally.

Sareln
No response after NAP bending and motives unknown. The most obvious plan he could be following is that he wants the #1 and #2 player to fight so that the #3 player can sneak a win, yet giving more none-military help to the #1 player seems counter intuitive to this assumption. I'm not sure how much effort is putting into the game at the moment which makes his actions and lack of reply suspect not just to deception but also negligence.

Need to get him back as a public ally or at least a truely neutral bystander. Causing collateral damage in his lands with rings of fire could cause him to attack me or to kick both of us out to fight elsewhere. Hopefully the latter.
If the oppurtunity arises during a counter attack, razing a city, or threatening to do so could re-open diplomatic channels (most likely further darkening our past working relationship though.)

Mr Yellow
The other lost Alliance member. My yellow is still stuck in a 10-turn enforced peace due to getting ring-of-fired. He needs to go deal with Krill anyway so I doubt I will see him hovering on my borders before that War is fought. However with our unfinished buisness I expect to see him again at some point. Especially If I switch Broken Entwash back to Warrior pumping AC rising.

With Mr Yellow being a unspoken vassal of Mist in my eyes and his last message being... well "not nice" in tone. Any attempts to keep the peace with him is probably best gone through Mist. Of course with Krill next door any aid I can give him will also hold Mr Yellow up at the cost of angering him further.

Mist
The Bannor have been plodding along nicely for the whole game untill Krill appeared next door. Both the horsemen appeared near here as well but i'm unsure how much damage has been done. At the very least the choas has disrupted his nice quiet life. This is good mechanically, but diplomatically its got to have annoyed him. Especially as Mist is the Diplomatic player i've most respected. He's seen this coming and knows the finger of blame lays squarely on me.

Any retribution will come via the Hippus and Mr Yellow but I doubt there is anything I can say or offer to stop it. Delay is still a possibility but only while Krill sits next door.

Amelia
The middle man. Has played isolationist and is suspected of being Pro-Vampire on occasion. Amelia is currently the only player I have open Borders with after both members of the Alliance turned. Amelia is now important because of his tendancies to try to stay under the radar. In a previous game he joined a dogpile mainly because everyone else was and it appeared to be a relatively easy win with minimal loses. If Mackoti has his ear he could talk him into it now.

Hopefully he will want to stay neutral and tech, but he's the guy i've got to try talking to. His open borders are useful for staging hawks out of and thats a good enough excuse to try talking and thus weigh his response.

Krill
Mr Distraction. He does his job well. Perhaps summoned a little two late to be a good enough threat. But then this is Krill. If I HAD summoned him earlier he could be running away with the game.

While Krill is the most likely to want to work with me he's also the one who can do least for me. Even supplying him information isn't that useful. A potential plan is to create some more settlers and offer new cities in trade. If created in the desert the cities will be surrounded by sands of fire and thus impossible for mortals to get too unless they have the right mana.

[SIZE="4"]Summery[/SIZE]
I'm most likely boned. Both Krill and Mackoti are threats to their current neighbours but I'm a loose cannon to the world itself with my AC rising ways. If the world is going to dog-pile on someone it is little old "revealed to be pure evil" me.

Oh sure I have ways and weapons, political and military wise, to perhaps survive and win battles. But the game is probably lost. Unlike others I have no obvious easy paths to take to victory. Culture is out. I have no mana nodes for the tower. The map is too large for Domination. By the time I pull off conquest Someone else will have pulled off a none military win. I'm evil so no Altar, not that getting the GPs would be doable anyway. Religion was only possible via the AC game plan nerfing others.

In short, and to repeat one of my opening posts, my game plan for this hasn't been so much a path to my own victory as a path to disrupting everyone's else's plans to victory and snatching my own from the jaws of chaos.

With the Pines halfing the AC and the #1 military threat pushing me onto the defensive any ability to cause chaos with the AC is probably gone. It's hovering at 41% (Last event triggered at 50% meaning I need 60% to start causing things to happen again.) I can switch back to warriors in the Prophecy city but the momentum is lost unless cities start getting razed or Krill kicks some ass.

Even If I counter attack It won't win me the game. I can only win by stopping others from winning. With AC gone what do I have left? Doing a reverse Dogpile would be a fun way to try. War on everyone else is sure to disrupt them. But the joy of playing against humans is the diplomatic nature of the game. Anyone that obviously threatens everyone is ganged up on. Whether this is being too strong militarily, causing the end of the world, or just being a minor threat to everyone via some action.

Thus switching from AC-monger to WAR-monger will still result in my loss to dog-piling. I can hold out hope for the AC to start rising but I need to find a diplomatic wedge here. Get people fighting each other. That's the only plan I can take from this outlook. It's also a plan that I fear is going to fail. The Diplomatic Geography post-alliance does not favour anything I say or do.

[Ravus Sol]

Sent the Sareln message;

Changed the last line from,
"Unless you have something yet to reveal I don't see why we can't reopen communications."

to,
"Unless you have something yet to reveal I don't see why we can't talk about re-opening trades of some kind."

Probably a pointless change but acknowledging we are not talking could just convince Sareln that their is no point replying. *shrug*