[SPOILERS - PBEM29] spacetyrantxenu - Mao of Babylon

[spacetyrantxenu]

Draft email/war declaration to Dazed:

Hail Dazed, Logician!

In the course of discussing our present impasse with his advisers, the Chairman has decided he wants me to burn down your newest city adjacent to our territory. Our generals are apparently a hawkish group and lust for blood, which I would have thought satisfied well enough when Mao sends them out to burn our villages and kill our peasants. Apparently now they want us to kill your peasants as well. I hope that I can satisfy Mao's blood lust by only removing your nearest city, which he says threatens our border security and impugns upon opportunity to exploit our rightful natural resources in the disputed area.

Mao makes concession that you have a right to the silver resource in this disputed area and is willing to see the silver used by your empire to provide happiness. Although he delights in the suffering of everyone he understands that sometimes diplomacy is about compromise. If your people prefer to be happy rather than oppressed that is a compromise he is willing to make, in the spirit of renewing our friendship after this unfortunate campaign concludes.

Mao has instructed our generals to not proceed their advancing army beyond the city you founded, so you need not fear we are out to destroy or cripple you. Mao has other plans in mind which he would like to discuss with you once we end hostilities here. He does not think it appropriate to discuss the matter yet, since we still have the unfortunate business of razing your city to attend to, but he believes it will be in the long term interests of both your nation and ours to discuss the matter once this unfortunate incident is behind us.

Again, apologies for the impending ugliness, but it is a measure that must be taken.

Hail Ronald Reagan!

Xenu,
Tyrant
Republican Party

(for)

Mao,
Chairman
Republican Party

[spacetyrantxenu]

Brief chat with Sian:

Mao: i'm a bit worried about the message you sent along with the save.*
[SIZE="1"]*"now with more wonders (i mourn the trees that had to give their life)"[/SIZE]
did you convert your trees into a big shiny statue or a tall lighthouse?

Sian: don't know how to build a big statue

Mao: so GLH?

Sian: yep

Mao: congrats.
how many chops did it take?

Sian: 15 basehammers + 3 chops ...
4 turns
if i had 1 bloody more hammer in overflow i had only needed 2 chops

Mao: insanely easy for an IND nation

Sian: and now i'm going to eyeball the wonder "ton of settlers"

Mao: at least until you get your stone hooked up, i'm sure

Sian: i hook up stone next time i get the save

Mao: pyramids here we come

Sian: but given that we're in t48 and the 'Mids usually go around 52-55 i doubt i can grab it
then again ... easy failgold which i get a crapload of gold for each hammer i throw at it
have to throw a abacus at it before playing next one

So damn, there goes the Lighthouse. This is a setback for sure, but at least the chops haven't gone into it yet. Those can be saved for when we have Mathematics and applied to something surely less interesting and useful than the GLH. It's annoying that he beat us to it pretty much only on the merit of the IND trait production boost. But I can't fuss about that too much, it would be the same as complaining about the awesome promotions we get on each and every protective bowmen we build! I thought we had a good plan and hoped we would be in time to steal it from him since I was pretty sure it would be close. It just wasn't close enough since he beat us to it by two turns. Then again, I'm glad he got it now and not after we had chopped those three forests and then won based only on turn order. That would have been even more painful and would have likely led to an irrational response on my part.

Speaking of irrational responses, the proposal I have in mind for Dazed when we're doing burning his city is to keep a state of war between us to perpetuate a phony war while we both build power, ostensibly to use against one another, and then for us to jointly invade Sian and burn down all his pretty wonders. Being a wonder whore and the inevitable GNP runaway usually is casus belli for a good, old-fashioned dogpile, isn't it? I understand there is a NAP involved between them but I don't know the terms of length or if there are any legitimate escape clauses Dazed could use and remain in good faith. (Aside: People, stop signing NAPs all the time! Enough!!) But with Sian landing the Lighthouse and being a mortal lock to build the Pyramids (seriously, who will compete on that? Sian says he's going to have stone connected soon, which means he settled his island site early...for the purpose of what exactly? To build the Pyramids of course!), he will have a massive GNP advantage as soon as he gets a few more cities planted, powered by cheap forges, probably running engineer specialists under Representation. We're going to have to do something about him soon and I hope that Dazed and/or Catwalk will be willing partners, or Sian could open up a huge lead.

My hope with Dazed is that he takes me burning his city for what it is, a necessity, and doesn't hold a grudge about it. He will have to bite back his anger and work with me on the Sian problem, if he looks at the real long term threats to him winning this game. Right now, Sian is much more of a problem than I am. One thing that bothers me, though, is that he might react with anger (even though the forward city plant was aggression on his part and was not a smart move) and team up with Sian or try to recruit Catwalk to smack me down, just in retaliation. From a strategic point of view that would be illogical as we have no economic advantage to speak of, only military so far, so I hope it doesn't come to that result. For now all we can do is play on and hope the politics line up like we need them to, in order to prevent a runaway situation.

[Commodore]

Blood is good. What do you having incoming?

[spacetyrantxenu]

Blood is good. What do you having incoming?

T49

It looks something like this:

It isn't much, but if what Catwalk told me was correct all Dazed has up here is a warrior and a worker. I expect to find more than that, but how much more I don't know. What I do know is that his power graph hasn't done much climbing lately, as if he isn't anticipating a response from me. So either he has moved his already minimal garrisons forward and is replacing those troops back home or he expected no response from me and isn't taking precautionary action. Or some third way that I'm not anticipating. Here is the power graph and demographics from last turn:

As far as city production, Rick had to switch off the Great Lighthouse since Sian went ahead and chopped it out two turns before we were going to. At least we can start research on Polytheism this turn, since we'll have enough fail gold to finish it now.

Relevant to the attack at hand, I had those three workers shown above chop the forest into Mitt, which will provide enough overflow this turn for a 1 turn chariot to join the attack next turn, followed by a 1 turn bowman to stop the anger in Mitt. Upcoming worker turns are detailed on that map, with the objective being to allow me to build a road next turn to allow the bow and spear south of the workers to advance onto the hill with the bow already on the wheat, and they will be joined by the chariot Mitt will produce. After that
(if the city founds on T51) the two workers that built the road will farm the wheat for fast growth, the other worker will road the forest, and when the farm and forest road are done all three workers will chop the forest into a wall, which the city will whip to completion as soon as it is able. Next build will be a monument most likely, and then a granary inefficiently build third. I don't care a lot about this city right now except to see that it does its job as a defensive position, at least for now.

In Rick I just started on a spear, it will be 2 turns. I wanted to build a barracks so I could make better units but I'm afraid that since the city will take 3 turns to get 1 move units to the new front city (supposed to settle on T51, pending avoiding becoming the Hindu holy city) building the barracks and then the spear would take too long to be of help if things go badly and Dazed puts up a good defense and pushes toward us.

And here's the top 5 cities. Rick, you won't be on this list long after all. Wherever Sian chopped out the Lighthouse, that will soon be listed here.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Lurker question, is the war declaration for next turn going to be quicker than one (if any yet) in the vets game? I assume that's safe to ask since I don't see how that could be a spoiler to us. I'm just curious.

Also I think it has been asked before, but what turn are they on? Have we caught up yet?

[spacetyrantxenu]

Dazed caught me on chat while I was playing Halo, I was a bit distracted at the start. Not a summary, but some thoughts are at the end if you don't care for the details.

Dazedroya​lty: hey you around?

Sent at 11:50 PM on Friday

Mao: Hang on halo
K, game over
what's up?

Dazedroya​lty: just wanted to chat about pbem29

Mao: sure

Dazedroya​lty: it is pretty obvious that you are planning military action against me

Mao: i don't want to spoil a possible future working relationship, but i am planning to remove your closest city if i can.

Dazedroya​lty: and i'd like to suggest that your efforts are better spent elsewhere
not to mention, you can't have your cake and eat it to

Mao: this is as far as i want to take the action. i actually have a plan in mind for an immediately following action.
catwalk may have spoken about it with you
a few minutes, next match started (halo still)

Dazedroya​lty: i have a few logical reasons why your attack will not be productive

Sent at 11:53 PM on Friday

Mao: because you have more than a warrior defending the city?

Dazedroya​lty: many reasons actually

Mao: i'll listen

Dazedroya​lty: but yes, that is one of them
1) i do have more than a warrior
i've been content to let slowwalk tell you that
but it's not true

Mao: it can't be a lot more, but i've seen your power graph

Dazedroya​lty: power graphs are delayed, and I've built no barracks and limited military techs (which is a large % of soldier points at this oint in the game)
now, I'll be honest, if you throw everythign you can at it, you'll win
but the cost for you will be higher than is worth it

Mao: right, but we have some of the same military techs, BW in particular

Dazedroya​lty: true. and you can choose to believ ewhat you want
but let me tell yout his, you will lose units to take the city
but even more importantly,
2) these efforts would be much better focused on Sian
who just built the GLH, and as has been pointed out, is a shoe in for the Pyramids
and if you wanted to, we could use this to trick him
but
3) if you raze that city, white peace will not be an option

Mao: really? you'd be so arrogant as to not accept a white peace after you clearly provoked me with the city location?
i would be willing to take a peace after i clear the city. i thought that was a good starting point for renewing a working relationship.

Dazedroya​lty: why should i? it gains me nothing then?
this is a game
it's not personal
it just doesn't make sense

Mao: it doesn't devolve into a vulgar grudge match by accepting a white peace. that's a win for us both.
you had to know i would not allow that city to remain.

Dazedroya​lty: i wouldn't be in vendetta mode
id just do what I can to hassle you

Mao: your level two borders would be 4 tiles from my capital. you wouldn't allow me to place a city that close to you either.

Dazedroya​lty: and i can hassle you without hurting me
if you placed a city there now, i wouldn't go to war over it

Mao: i could similarly choke with bows. but that would be counterproductive.

Dazedroya​lty: theres WAY too much other land
except my immortals would beat your bows

Mao: right, there is other land. but silver is a limited resource.

Dazedroya​lty: and you'd need two units for every one

Mao: yes, for now. but a longbow choke would be difficult to push.

Dazedroya​lty: and you can still get silver
to the North

Mao: yes, but that does nothing about retreiving my lost wheat and fur.
which your city placement makes impossible to sensibly settle.
to settle those now i'd forego the north silver too. not acceptable.

Dazedroya​lty: i can't stop you from your decision
but i honestly don't think it's the best play for your empire

Mao: all i can recommend is that we don't make this a point of ongoing conflict. we need to work together to take down sian. but before i can attack out after the leader i have to secure my own border. right now it is not secure. that's the entire position.

Dazedroya​lty: it's no less secure than that city would make it
in fact, you have a BETTER choke point now

Mao: if you would be willing to allow that site to be razed and send your forces with mine against sian, that would make more sense than bludgeoning each other.
i'd rather burn his wonder cities than any of yours right now.

Dazedroya​lty: honestly, you expect i'd have a city razed and just say "oh well" and work with the guy that razed it?
EXACTLy
let's go do that

Mao: what would be a better choke point?

Dazedroya​lty: i'll even give you rights to all of Sian's land
but let's focus on him
which is the point

Mao: you were the one who named yours the empire of logic. in a global strategic view, your overreach front city is less important than taking down the wonder builder.

Dazedroya​lty: exactly
take him down

Mao: i don't want sian's land. the maintenance would kill me. in a joint effort the fair thing to do would be to raze the cities and split the plunder gold.

Dazedroya​lty: someone will want that land eventually

Mao: i don't want to knock him out of the game, wouldn't be fun for him. just bring him back to the pack.

Dazedroya​lty: wait?

Mao: well when someone can settle his land that's a conversation to have then. we all have enough land to settle now.

Dazedroya​lty: okay, you can have all the gold
what i'm saying is you're making it about this city instead of sian
but you can't have both ways

Mao: i could have it both ways if you were willing to cooperate. i know you don't want to lose the investment in that city, but honestly you just built it. you have invested a settler and a few worker turns moving up there. am i missing something?
opportunity cost for not sending the settler elsewhere.

Dazedroya​lty: [COLOR="Yellow"]if you want to give me a settler, i'd let you raze it
[/COLOR]
Mao: this seems like a good point to realize the mistake of settling too close to a rival and cutting your losses, rather than risking alienating a potential ally. that seems to be the logical move.

Dazedroya​lty: but that's a big loss
re: allies. it's clear you and Slow Walk are already close


Mao: that isn't an entirely unreasonable offer, but it would amount to me paying for your mistake. in the interest of maintaining good relations, the best i can do there is a worker, since i'm EXP it won't cost so much anyway
but i'm not sure i owe you anything since it was you who provoked me.
(sorry, game on..this one is splockets..back in a few)

<snip...pew pew pew!>

Dazedroya​lty: i settled in the TUNDRA which is a contested area
and we had no agreements in place
(by your choice)
sorry i gotta run too
but i'm out for the night
(FYI, out of game, I am not upset at all. This is all good fun for me. I really like playing with you so i hope you don't take anything personally)

Mao: you settled on my border. you knew what you were doing.
either that or you didn;t bother to scout it first, which is again your fault and not mine

Dazedroya​lty: i am not arguing whether I settled on your border
i think we have to concede that

Mao: no, nothing personal. its' a diplo game i get that. you have to try to drive a hard bargain. but until i see your military force i won't buy it.

Dazedroya​lty: just that it's not the best play at this point for you to fight me

Mao: it may not be the best play for me. but i think it is a necessary play. i can't have a rival choking me into my core

Dazedroya​lty: that's contradictory
if it's not the best play, you can have it
if it's the best play, then you can't have it

Mao: you don't always do what you want, sometimes you do what yo must. there is a difference.

Dazedroya​lty: i'm think you're doing what you want
"I don't want a city that close to me"
NOT what is best
which is to work together
and focus your hammers on settling in the large land avaialble
(which you pointed out)

Mao: let me ask you this...would you allow me to keep a city that close to your capital? 4 tiles once i get level 2 borders?

Dazedroya​lty: yes
i already mentioned that
at this point
if you broke no agreements
i would

Mao: i don't think that would be wise.

Dazedroya​lty: not ideal no
but better than wasting hammers and going to war
when i have lots of other options

Mao: i'm playing with no NAPs by choice because i find it to be more fun. in that situation you could 2 turn attack my capital anytime you wanted with a stack of 2 movers. i'd have to dedicate a garrison for that. i don't think i can win this game in a purely defensive posture.

Dazedroya​lty: your capital culture would eventually out power my city's culture
hands down
plus, with OB i coudln't have a stack there
without you knowing
that's as easy as 1 warrior

Mao: ok. so you tech music, fire a culture bomb, etc.
or it goes to the modern age and you go commando. no matter how you do it, having a rival that close isn't wise.

Dazedroya​lty: you could do the same to me

Mao: where? against your tundra front city?
not a relevant point vs. what it means for you to do it against my capital.

Dazedroya​lty: here's the assumption that you have that doesn't make sense to me: razing another players city and thinking we'll be good friends (in game) after
even with white peace, who do you think i'll be more inclined to go to war with once land runs out?
you'll have to be on alert all the time no matter what

Mao: i'll admit i haven't played online MP before, but if i made a cool play like settling up on someone and they slapped me down for it, i'd have to admit to myself that it was probably my fault.

Sent at 12:26 AM on Saturday

Mao: you're correct, this incident probably sets our relations back a good bit, whether it bears ill fruit now or later in the game. but the casus belli is there, we've found our point of conflict. it's just earlier than the other teams have found theirs it seems.
i had planned to be on alert anyway, since NAP games exhaust me.

Dazedroya​lty: i really do have to go. but i'll just reiterate that taking the city will be more painful than you think
immediately and in the long term

Mao: it may be, but we're going to give it a shot.

I think some of his misunderstanding about my intentions stem from the fact that I will be resettling the city immediately in a more defensible location, which he does not know since he can't see the settler waiting inside of Mitt.

I highlighted two points for consideration, reprinted here because I posted way too much text above:

Dazedroya​lty: 3) if you raze that city, white peace will not be an option
Dazedroya​lty: if you want to give me a settler, i'd let you raze it

I'm not quibbling about him changing his position, it's understandable to evolve a position as a discussion progresses. However, I'm not sure why he's so determined to hold the city in the first stance when he acknowledges he settled up on me. Then I'm not sure why he thinks I should pay for his mistake by giving him a mulligan on building that city, by giving away a settler. In a pure logical setting the math would break down that I could raze the city for the cost of only gifting back a 60 hammer settler, where in the actual war that will have to perform the act I may well lose that many hammers in the act of burning it myself, and probably many more as he sends troops my way (he will lose a lot of hammers too). Compared to that backdrop of unproductive hammer spending, it would seem giving up 60 hammers to make the problem go away would be the wise decision.

However, I'm not here to set a precedent of giving in when someone acts aggressively (rewarding bad behavior, so to speak), so I won't accept that offer. I won't give a worker either. Basically, my feeling is that Dazed made a mistake by putting that city there and he has to pay his own way. When I burn the city if he wants another settler he can build it himself, just send it somewhere else next time. I'm not out seeking damages or reparations for some perceived slight or injustice, because this doesn't rise to that level. It was inconsiderate to not ask if he thought he was this close to my land, or just a blunder if he didn't know. Either way it doesn't matter. I just want to use my own land and have a safe border, and it looks like I'll have to enforce it for that to be happen.

In any case, until I see an army from Dazed's territory I will assume this has all been an attempt to use soft power to attain his goals. It was a good effort, but really, a bad play has to be punished. If this turns into a long term incident...well, at least the lurkers will be entertained. Unfortunately for us, it looks like this is going to get ugly.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Mao makes concession that you have a right to the silver resource in this disputed area and is willing to see the silver used by your empire to provide happiness.

Did you offer the silver to Dazed as compensation? I do not think this is warranted, and it serves our long term interests much better for him to take Sian's silver. From the rest of the conversation it does not appear that this point was acknowledged by Dazed, which is good. Don't make the offer again.

Hopefully he's talking because he has many less pointy sticks. But, it appears we'll need to get those walls up ASAP.

[spacetyrantxenu]

That was from the draft email that he hasn't seen. I was waiting on your input before sending it. I think he's entitled to a silver resource since I still want to settle the other one eventually this would be a spare source for us. If it's in our BFC I'm still willing to gift it or trade it to him as a diplomatic effort to maintain good relations. But this is one of those NBA owners offers: they only get worse from here.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

I'm generally not in the habit of giving things away from free. He's entitled to whatever city he can settle and hold. He did not seek diplomatic approval, cannot (as far as I can tell) hold out militarily, and thus is not entitled to a handout. Come on, stick to your Republican roots. No handouts.

In all seriousness, he has every incentive to settle upon Sian. If he gave away his rights on paper, that is his fault. Sian will never be a better target than now. He's invested hammers in wonders that will very shortly have him ahead. Dazed needs to recognize this too. If we cannot make him attack Sian, and we will not take Sian out on our own (which we shouldn't), this will be something to deal with later and Dazed can throw units at our walled/hill fort city until the bodies pile up.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Apparently as I was posting you were playing the save and the war. Can you send me the save from the turn? I'd like to have a peek.

I won't spoil any potential thunder by being the first to post what is likely obvious.

Edit: GNP does not look good. At all.