Adventure Nineteen - T-hawk

[T-hawk]

My report can be found here:

http://www.dos486.com/civ4/adv19/

I didn't do anything really special, just picked a power tech for a romp to victory.

[sunrise089]

Nice game T-Hawk. I thought it was a bit funny that you rarely prioritize Democracy - I prioritize it almost every game, since I normally take Nationalism with the Liberalism bonus. Perhaps we have different expansion rates though - as I find the Emancipation cottage boost definitely helps out. I normally revolt to Emancipation, and then later revolt to Free Speech and Universal Suffrage together when I notice I have mostly towns.

One thing I didn't feel went exactly as you described was the Internet option you described in your intro. I played a test game with identical settings and worldbuilded myself that tech, and found it to be pretty mediocre. Perhaps it was because I lacked a strong enough production city, but by the time I had the Internet built, and then took the time to convert all my cities over to 100% production (which I saw as the main advantage), and then begin kicking AI butt, the more geographically distant AIs were near launching. Maybe I'm missing some other option than to run pure production+Internet however.

[scooter]

Great game T-Hawk, and a good read, but there was one thing I didn't quite understand:

Do we revolt to our Universal Suffrage / Emancipation combo right away. I decided not to. The civics don't offer anything until we have some cash to spend or a cottage to work or a rival is at the happy cap. By waiting until later to have the one turn of anarchy, we can get more done during that one turn -- in the form of moving exploring units and applying worker labor. (Yes. I micromanage everything.

I still don't get the difference between revolting then and revolting later. If anything, it would seem revolting earlier would make more sense because you're losing out on less beakers/food/production because you would be more developed later. I'm just not seeing what the benefit is in waiting, you seem to at very best break even, or was this just a personal preference with no real advantage gained?

[Sullla]

Great game, T-Hawk. Normally that worker steal would be frowned upon, but this was a silly game anyway, so why not? It was interesting to me to see just how much of the eastern continent remained unsettled even at game's end. The AI doesn't do a great job of colonization, clearly.

Now we wait and see if anyone managed a faster Space victory. 1816 should be very competitive.

[T-hawk]

Nice game T-Hawk. I thought it was a bit funny that you rarely prioritize Democracy - I prioritize it almost every game, since I normally take Nationalism with the Liberalism bonus.

The single biggest strike against Democracy is that it's not on the spaceship path. And it's an expensive tech. I have a hard time seeing a Democracy beeline pay back 6000+ beakers before you would pick up the tech in trade anyway.

And here's the other missing link: I hate giving up Slavery. The whip is an extremely efficient method of building, especially after Biology which I usually beeline to in the mid game. With a granary, the whip converts an average of about 20 food to 30 hammers, with an easily manageable happiness hit. (Exploit the 1.61 whipping bug as I do, and it's 20 food to 60 hammers which is insane.) And food is more plentiful than hammers, since any tile can be farmed or windmilled for food, but workshops have the food penalty and watermills are limited. Finally, I need Slavery because I always run very thin defenses, counting on the whip (and the pillage-happy AI) to be able to fend off any emergencies.

If you beeline Democracy early enough that the growth from Emancipation helps, it can be worthwhile. But I more often find myself with most towns fully grown by then anyway. And Universal Suffrage often seems inferior to Representation. By that time, economy is a much higher priority than a few hammers, since your cities run out of things to build anyway.

One thing I didn't feel went exactly as you described was the Internet option you described in your intro. ... Perhaps it was because I lacked a strong enough production city

I would think so. A strong medieval production city (before Rep Parts and Ironworks) should have about four hills and some forests producing 20 base hammers. +25% from Org Rel, +25% from the forge, +100% from copper makes 50 hammers/turn. That would get you the Internet in 40 turns total, which shouldn't be near anyone launching.

[T-hawk]

I still don't get the difference between revolting then and revolting later. If anything, it would seem revolting earlier would make more sense because you're losing out on less beakers/food/production because you would be more developed later. I'm just not seeing what the benefit is in waiting, you seem to at very best break even, or was this just a personal preference with no real advantage gained?

The advantage is real, IF the civics in question don't affect your growth curve. The loss to one turn of anarchy is the same no matter when you take it.

Here's a simplified example: let's assume there's a city making only one kind of production units and growing that by one per turn. And assume that a worker costs 15 units and we produce two.

If we revolt on the last turn, we get this production over 10 turns:

Code:

Turn        : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Total
Production  : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0  45
Worker labor: - - - - 1 1 1 2 2 2  9

If we revolt on the first turn:

Code:

Turn        : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Total
Production  : 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9  45
Worker labor: - - - - - 1 1 1 2 2  7

The total production over 10 turns is the same. But each worker came out a turn later, so we're behind two turns on worker labor.

However, if the civics in question DO speed your growth curve, you do come out ahead by revolting as soon as possible. This was true for me here once I had a cottage for Emancipation to work on. In a typical game case, Organized Religion is the best example of this since it's a clear straight production boost.

It was interesting to me to see just how much of the eastern continent remained unsettled even at game's end. The AI doesn't do a great job of colonization, clearly.

I didn't give them enough time. 1816 is very early. They got to Astronomy late, and had galleons for maybe fifty turns before the game ended. Not enough time to scout out city sites, build settlers and escorts, load them onto the ships, and sail back over.

The AI can colonize empty space OK -- they did fine with the islands to the south of the main continent. Their problems with the New World here was the same problem they always have with naval invasions. They couldn't mass enough force to capture the barbarian cities. (They can, but it takes them upwards of fifty turns to amass a credible fleet of three or four full ships.) The continent was actually full of barbarian cities -- I razed most of them over about the last 15 turns with surplus units just for the extra cash.

[sooooo]

Hi T-Hawk, I appreciated your report. Hope this means you are past your burnout and we see at least a few more reports until your next stage of burnout .

I gotta say - I thought about starting with emancipation but then thought "but I can't whip!". Now I know Sullla dislikes whipping as the "standard" method of production and we probably won't be able to do it in epic 12, but I like it and had just finished adventure 17 where the no whipping rule caused me both pain and suffering. But well done exploiting the commerce to an early space win.

It would have been interesting to see if someone used a self imposed "no mines, no slavery" variant, where they had to use universal suffrage and emancipation to buy all their improvements.

[Sullla]

Now I know Sullla dislikes whipping as the "standard" method of production and we probably won't be able to do it in epic 12,

I think we're reaching the point where the community is beginning to know me too well...

[scooter]

Hmm, thanks T-Hawk for the detailed explanation, it makes sense to me now. I understood the use of switching civics when it's needed, I just didn't get why you would wait to switch when you're going to have to switch anyways, but it makes sense to me now.

[sunrise089]

Thanks for the response to my questions T-Hawk. I just think we have a different mid-late game plan. I always prioritize Democracy, always switch out of Slavery, and always try to build the Statue (ok, maybe not on an island map). I rarely prioritize Biology at all - I don't really see the point until the very end game where I want lots of production, and even then normally State Property Watermills, Windmills, and Workshops plus food specials normally allow me to work all the tiles I want.

I'm definitely going to need to vary my tech choice up in some for-fun games - I keep reading about Steel and Biology beelines, and need to give them a shot.