The Kuriotates: A Tale of Centaurs, Hubris, and Unbridled Enthusiasm

[HidingKneel]

Let us have a moment of silence for the Sheaim, whose exploding zombies could not join us for this nightmarish armageddon scenario.

[HidingKneel]

Welcome all to the Kuriotates spoiler thread for FFH XXI, aka the "Armageddon game"!

Some say that the last days of the world are upon us. Rumors stir of a great orcish shaman, who has united his people in the pursuit of this goal. Others say that the seafaring Lanun have begun consorting with demons, heedless of the potentially disastrous consequences of loosing them upon Erebus. Lunatics and wise men alike are prophesying an end to all life on Erebus.

But don't worry. Because this guy is not about to let that happen:



As Cardith Lorda of the Kuriotates, I'll be commanding a legion of centaurs (like our hygienic friend here) against the forces of darkness. With right on my side and a crack team of dedlurkers (Commodore and Mardoc) to advise, I have every confidence that the world of Erebus can yet be saved. If you fancy an epic tale of good against evil and heroism in the face of adversity, this may be the thread for you.

And if that's not your speed... well, maybe I can wrestle up some more hot "centaur in the shower" pictures.

[HidingKneel]

Alright, let's have a look at what we're dealing with here. First I should emphasize that I've never played EitB, and in fact haven't even installed it yet. So my analysis is based on some experience with FFH, combined with a quick glance at the changelog for EitB. I'm counting on lurkers (dedicated or otherwise!) to chime in with a correction if I get something wrong about the modmod.

We're playing as Cardith Lorda of the Kuriotates.

Cardith is expansive and philosophical, with philosophical as an adaptive trait (we get to swap it out every 75 turns). We're playing this game with advanced start enabled, which ought to synergize with philosophical: normally that trait is deadweight in the very early game, since it doesn't benefit us until we can run specialists. Quicker start means earlier specialists, which means we should get more use out of the trait before the swap.

The financial trait is substantially weaker in EitB than it is in FFH2, so the choice of what to swap to is a lot more interesting. It's far too soon to come to any conclusion on that, but I think spiritual is a top contender. As Mardoc points out, anarchy-free civic swaps are even more useful than in FFH2, since the civics are better balanced now.

The civ trait for the Kuriotates is "sprawling". This means we can only have limited number of cities (should be three on this map, if I understand correctly), but those cities can work three rings of tiles instead of two.
I'm not sure whether advanced start will be helping us or hurting us on this score: on the one hand, we can get our three super-cities set up almost immediately. But if I was to sum up the key to getting the Kuriotates up to speed in the early game in three words, they would be "location, location, location". Since three cities are all we get, optimal placement is key. This encourages us to slow down a bit, and scout some territory before deciding to settle. Tension between these two considerations is going to force us to make some important decisions right from turn 0.

Once we've set up our three cities, everything else we build from then on is a "settlement". Settlements can't grow larger than size 1, work any tiles, or build anything. However, they can claim resources, and don't cost any maintenance. They can also receive passive benefits from temples (automatically constructed by priests). This is one reason I'd favor spiritual for the first adaptive swap: it gives us the option to build lots of different kinds of temples in our settlements. Not sure how important this will be to the actual gameplan, but worth mentioning.

Since this is a spoiler thread and all, I guess we can let you in on our secret plan. It's all about this guy:



That's right, this is a full-on Mercurian rush. Bob can have his infernals and we'll bring out the angels. Commodore has graciously agreed to take control of Basium once he arrives. I'm not sure exactly what will happen then, but I imagine it might go something like this.

Why Basium, you ask? Well, somebody's got to bring them out this game. And the Kuriotates have amazing synergy with Basium. Once we've built the gate, I can gift all of my settlements to Commodore (except for one, which will need to become a new megacity): instant empire. We start out good and I plan on staying good, so many of the troops we lose can fight on for us, reborn as angels. We've also got the potential to have a great economy to bring out Basium early, and can afford to make a near beeline down the religious line (another reason to go spiritual). We'll probably make a detour down the mounted line first, though, because centaurs are awesome.

So, that's where we're headed. Now we need to figure out how to get there. Time for me to play around with this "advanced start" business and see if I can find a sensible way to spend those 402 points we're starting with...

[Mardoc]

Yep, that describes it pretty well. The main interesting question will be how this works with and against our foes' plans.

Speaking of which, my assessments:

Selrahc of the Clan
Oh, geez, this is an easy one. Exactly what he's stated, in public, in multiple places. Head straight for the Prophecy of Ragnarok, and Warrens, and rush for maximum AC ASAP. Trust in the horsemen to at least slow his foes, if not finish them off outright. If anyone survives, use the untouched power of Orcish Warrens to finish them off.

To handle this? Well, of course we want to raze the Ragnarok city. Other than that, it's probably a conventional war all the way. Assuming we can race to something that handles the Horsemen, we turn that army on Selrahc at some point to win.

Bob of the Lanun
Not getting any harder! Granted, Bob hasn't outright *said* he's rushing for Hyborem. He's...just...been an outspoken fan of Big H in every game so far, bar one, helped Selrahc plot a Hyborem rush in VI, and enjoys the Infernal gameplay. Oh, and chose Falamar on a map explicitly described as no ocean except a pond for the Lanun, if chosen - so he's not going to manage a long Lanunish game.

To handle Bob? Well, if he follows the VI blueprint, he'll have a very vulnerable period any time before Ashen Veil is in. That beeline, which concluded about T90, had no military techs whatsoever, not even Bronze Working. In addition, Lanun cities are some of the best prizes in the game. He'll be a pinata! Hit him to make prizes come out!

If he doesn't follow the blueprint...there's a good chance Selrahc is the summoner instead. And we could fake it, too, for a while, to keep Bob on his toes - it's the same path for both angels and devils up until Philosophy, after all. Lanun, with only a pond, and someone else as Hyborem, are pretty much just a target.

Also, of course, Basium can handle the Demonlord. If he's on the board in time. Main debate will be whether we send over some centaurs to wreak havoc before the swap, or angels and centaurs to conquer the prize after Bob's handed them off to Thoth. Also, figuring out the right balance between teching to Fanaticism and just building a conventional army. Don't worry about getting to fight Hyborem - if Bob doesn't make it, Selrahc is likely to summon Big H himself. Although I don't know which way to bet on whether Selrahc keeps the orcs or swaps to the Infernals.

Finally, there's the bonus feature. Bob wants a high AC - but he also wants Manes. And Selrahc, of course, will be building tons of AV troops. Bob may not actually be an immediate threat to us, even if we don't stop his Hyborem rush.

Plako of the Balseraphs
Ah, now it's getting interesting. Not really sure what a Balseraph armageddon gameplan looks like. It's possible that it looks like any other Balseraph game - use all their nice tricks to build up an unstoppable lead in the demos, translate that to an army and beat face. As Perpentach, I expect he's planning to play a flexible game, using whatever traits he's got.

To handle Balseraphs? Well, we need to declare on Loki on sight, but other than that, a conventional game ought to work. They might suffer the most out of anyone from Hell terrain with their Evil ways - unless plako goes for a religion and an alignment swap. First thought on my part is to ignore them, come back and beat them once we've got Basium and 2/3 cores.

Ilios of the Elohim
Ah...I expect him to directly oppose the demonlords. Not sure if he'll bother to try the Hallowing, but Monks and good religionists and Life mages can do nasty things to armies made of demons and undead. And of course Sanctuary is handy. Elohim were our second choice.

He may want a Kurio city of his own for Tailors and Jewelers. And he may want a Basium city for the Mercurian Palace. So we can't treat him as an ally - but it's true that his bonuses mostly don't work against us.

Now, all this said - Bob and Selrahc have predictable gameplans. That doesn't make them weak! Ilios, too, is a strong player - his main weakness, getting a little too builderish and an attractive dogpile target, is directly compensated by his civ choice. And plako, although an FFH noob, is a strong civ player too. It's a strong field.

Which will make our eventual victory all the sweeter, of course

[Mardoc]

Erebus in the Balance changes, to the Kurios and Basium.

Nothing directly. There are some indirect things that help, though.

First and foremost: Foreign Trade is now an *awesome* civic. Bonus traderoutes are a bit 'meh', but double rate of cottage growth means we can have our Enclaves up and running in the midgame, instead of late game. Once we make it to maxxed Enclaves, Republic puts the icing on the cake, with "+1 Hammers and +1 Commerce from Enclaves and Towns, +3 Happy in the Largest Cities, +25% GPP, and +20% Culture" A grassland Enclave, therefore, in addition to coming sooner, ends up as a 3/1/7 tile.

The route to Fanaticism is a bit shorter than it was.

Corruption of Spirit, and importantly Infernal Pact, are both more expensive. Partially compensated by the removal of Way of the Wicked.

Order is a better religion now. Empyrean is somewhat weaker.

Everyone can get Pearls, at Sailing. This means we can max out Jewelers, even without Lanun help.

There are other changes, that might matter, but I'll mention them if and as they come up.

[HidingKneel]

Alright, here's what I've concluded from toying around with the advanced start feature for a little while:

a) Techs are for chumps.
b) Each city costs more than the last, and each settler costs more than the last. Cheapest way to pay for 3 cities is to found 2 of them (65+97) and buy one settler (72, with expansive discount). This costs us 234, leaving 168 points left.
c) Scouts/warriors cost 20 apiece, and we can't have more than 2 per city.
d) Workers cost 50 apiece.
e) Purchased settlers don't get the bonus to movement/visibility.

What do you think about buying two workers (one per initial city) and
three scouts? We send the scouts out immediately to find a place to put our third settler, and start off with a warrior build in each city.

(Alternatively: two scouts and a warrior, keeping the warrior with the settler to be its initial garrison when it is founded.)

Of course, all this depends on what the territory looks like at our start.
If we don't see good places to put two cities initially, we could start off
city-settler-settler for a cost of 65+72+108=245, with 157 left over.
That's still enough to buy us 2 workers and 2 military units.

[Mardoc]

What do you think about buying two workers (one per initial city) and three scouts? We send the scouts out immediately to find a place to put our third settler, and start off with a warrior build in each city.

Starting with Agriculture makes this all the sweeter - those workers can do their jobs from T0. I expect we'll still need more workers, but they can wait until we're secure against For the Horde.

I figure our first tech is whatever it takes to get our commerce jumpstarted.

Of course, all this depends on what the territory looks like at our start.
If we don't see good places to put two cities initially, we could start off
city-settler-settler for a cost of 65+72+108=245, with 157 left over.
That's still enough to buy us 2 workers and 2 military units.

Yeah, it does depend on the terrain and the visibility. But given Basium and settlements, don't be too out of sorts if we miss a good site - we'll be able to redeem it later. What's most important in my book is that fast start.

Ah...speaking of Basium. Any opinion on how important it is that his capital be a city that's good at both 2 rings and 3? My thinking is that we shouldn't worry about picking a Basium site right away - instead we just want the strongest Kurio sites we can manage quickly. Worst comes to worst - Mercurian Palace is only 108 hammers; build it in one of Basium's other cities, and gift the Gate city back to the Kurios. We get enough of a rocket start otherwise, and that'll be a minor cost by the time it rolls around. Compare to the 400 hammer Gate, or the 335 hammer City of a Thousand Slums.

Most of my other thoughts probably have to wait for the map.

[Commodore]

In general for all of this I'd think speed is the most important. With Selrahc probably running as tight a PoR beeline as possible he's looking at, what, turn 70? And the t90 Lanun beeline was on the crappiest map ever, so Bob will be Hyborem much, much faster. Blight will hit early, and horsemen won't be far behind at all. A bulbing Great Prophet and an Academy need to be born quickly if Basium is the main focus.

Of course, Kurios do own centaurs...and both Bob and Charles will be running farmer's gambits by definition...

[HidingKneel]

Ah...speaking of Basium. Any opinion on how important it is that his capital be a city that's good at both 2 rings and 3?

My thinking is sort of the opposite. If we see a spot on turn 0 that looks good except for lots of peaks in the third ring (say), then we should feel free to grab it, since we can turn it over to Basium later. Being able to work the third ring is nice early if it helps us grab resources, but isn't essential until much later; our speedy start will come more from having a higher happy cap.

Besides, there'll be no need for Basium to gift back one of our supercities if we're sitting on the Lanun capital at that point . Speaking of which:

He'll be a pinata! Hit him to make prizes come out!

Very well-put .

A bulbing Great Prophet and an Academy need to be born quickly if Basium is the main focus.

So, I don't know what the bulb paths look like. You're thinking to bulb priesthood? How much better would this be, say, than using those GPP to put academies in all three super-cities?

Of course, Kurios do own centaurs...and both Bob and Charles will be running farmer's gambits by definition...

Bob should be a soft target, but Selrahc might be able to grab a decent garrison with his worldspell, without even touching the military techs. Having a S6 goblin archer fortified in a hill city will make him a pretty tough nut to crack. Of course, we don't need to actually take his cities to slow him down. Centaurs should be great at choking and pillaging, and should definitely be our first priority after basic worker techs (and mysticism).

Now, another turn 0 decision: do we swap out of pacifism immediately, or wait for calendar to come in (assuming we tech calendar first) to pull a double-swap? I'm thinking the former, since we'll have a lot of cities to garrison right away.

[Mardoc]

In general for all of this I'd think speed is the most important. With Selrahc probably running as tight a PoR beeline as possible he's looking at, what, turn 70?

Hmm. I think that might be when he gets PoR, but there's no way that's when Armageddon hits. He needs about 30 Marked units, in addition to spreading AV far and wide and building heroes and whatnot.

And the t90 Lanun beeline was on the crappiest map ever, so Bob will be Hyborem much, much faster. Blight will hit early, and horsemen won't be far behind at all. A bulbing Great Prophet and an Academy need to be born quickly if Basium is the main focus.

Well...Selrahc never had any worker techs in that game, actually. Granted, saving the trek to the sea and having the ability to work things like grass forests and wheat ought to help. As should starting with potentially 3 cities.

Of course, Kurios do own centaurs...and both Bob and Charles will be running farmer's gambits by definition...

Ayup . Well, presuming HK's For the Horde speculation is false - although even there, goblin archers vs Centaurs is not a real fun situation for the archers.

Now, another turn 0 decision: do we swap out of pacifism immediately or wait for calendar to come in (assuming we tech calendar first) to pull a double-swap? I'm thinking the former, since we'll have a lot of cities to garrison right away.

Too early to decide. Maybe our commerce tiles are Crafting-Mining. Maybe they're just river and we need to go for Edu instead. Maybe we see a way to get Elder Councils built ridiculously early. I lean toward a T0 swap, especially if we end up with two settlers, but nothing's certain yet.