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Retrospectives Thread II

Gaspar Wrote:What's funny to me is that Lewwyn had originally asked me to dedlurk and basically when he told me you guys were going to try culture I said forget it. lol

Heh yeah I greatly enjoyed seeing this post from you in the lurker thread:

Gaspar Wrote:By the by, given we have a little more info, what does everyone expect to see as a finishing order? Obviously Spullarise are going to win, but of the other three teams? I had been asked to D/L Team 2, but between not wanting to be part of a train wreck (the game itself, I mean) and that I think in general its more fun to global lurk than dedlurk, I decided not to. Had I gotten a whiff of their plan ahead of time, I *definitely* would not have lurked. I'd say Team 3 has the highest overall skill level outside of Team 1, at least in terms of what we've seen in other games here, but I think they've overthought themselves a bit. Still, I suppose they'd be my choice for 2nd place.

Team 4 has strategized pretty well, though maybe a touch heavier on the military flavor than I would have. Still, no offense to those guys, 2 of 3 of whom I really like (I don't know Kuro) as people, but Jkaen's forever going to be monument first guy, and TT is well TT. While he's certainly grown as a player since PBEM3, I did just play a teamer against him where we sat aghast as he settled 3 cities before hooking up gold at his capital, so he still has some definite holes in his game.

Still, I think Team 2's plan is so implausible and unlikely to work in this format that I'd guess the final standings will be:

1. Team 1
2. Team 3
3. Team 4
4. Team 2

Anyone else spare a thought on the topic?

Hey, scorewise your ranking was right on!
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The lesson, as always, is that I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. smoke
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oledavy Wrote:Congrats to Waterbat on winning with his guess!

Thanks Davy! I said it in my first post here at RB - your reporting on this game convinced me to register after a 9-year Civ MP hiatus. So I credit you with my amazing victory! Credit to Sullla too for directing me here with working links in google (unlike RB huh)

I bow to all the players AND lurkers involved - thanks for the entertainment.
--
Best dating advice on RB: When you can't hide your unit, go in fast and hard. -- Sullla
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I've been thinking of this write up for a while, and about how to describe how I felt during this game. It was an incredible ride and I had a lot of conflicting emotions all the way through. I think the best thing to do is sort through it all chronologically. I'm not sure how much I'm going to comment on other teams in this post the focus will be on our team and how we did.

To begin with when this started I was talking to Luddite as I often do and he and ASM had signed up for this game. I told him I'd be interested in joining up, a great deal because I hadn't been in any pitbosses to date, and had only done PBEMs and wanted the experience. I figured a team setting would be a good place to start where we could decide things together and there wouldn't be a huge burden on me. Boy was I wrong.

When I joined, Ludds and ASM had already mostly decided on going for a culture victory. This is of course without seeing the map or anything. I had never actually played a culture victory before so I relied on them for the most part in the beginning strategy. Also important to note that when this was starting I was extremely busy because I was back in the US visiting my family and I wanted to spend as much time as I could with them since I then don't get to see them for the next 10 moths. Also there was our wedding ceremony and reception + taking care of my in-laws who were staying with us but couldn't speak english. My life was a clusterfuck and I was very little help within the planning process. I did however suggest China as one of our civs over HRE. wink

I was skeptical that a culture victory would work with a medieval start + AW setting though I agreed with Luddite that the AW setting actually helped us by restricting communication. I was actually incredibly thankful for Sulla stepping in and closing that banter thread as it could have screwed us enormously. It was not something we had agreed upon at the beginning and I doubt I would have gone along with our team's plan if there had been such a way to communicate. So thanks Sulla. Some may say you overstepped the bounds using moderating powers but I think Thoth's creation of the thread without consulting everyone warranted it being closed. I didn't comment too much on it at the time because again we were trying to keep a low profile.

Keeping a low profile was the name of the game. ASM brilliantly named our main thread Retrospectives after Luddite had RL issue and had to leave. I think it helped solidify the idea that we weren't really trying too hard and we weren't a threat. Culture victory is funny that way because it is psychological for both the ones running the gambit and the ones against those running it. But more on that later.

Luddite is right about me being very skeptical of our chances to win from the very beginning, but I was willing to go with it the novelty and fun of it. I simply couldn't believe that we would be allowed to do it. Given that, I went into this thinking we had a 10% or less shot of winning. That was fine for me because it still endeavored to do my best but with lowered expectations I would have to feel too much pressure.

The beginning was hard with all the reloads and frustration of getting the logistics fixed. It took a lot of my enjoyment out of the game and probably made me a bit gloomier about our prospects, but since we had a plan we continued to go at it and I just kept fulfilling my end of the bargain and tried to be efficient as possible. I think we made a lot of micro mistakes and part of it was due to the fact that we were in different TZs and all.

Through the early game I thought we were competitive, and that was good. There came a point when I knew we were not going to win culturally before other teams got to rifles and even infantry and cannons. Tech was simply going much faster than we had anticipated. Originally Luddite had proposed we win culturally around the time rifles were introduced, but we were way off. We had a quick discussion in which I basically said this is the point of no return, we tech this and we go full throttle culture no looking back. I was willing to go either way. Luddite still want dot try culture so I said let's do this. I think at this point we teched something related to culture either divine right or lib or something instead of military tech.

I also want to point out that we were worried about being rolled up on by knights. Me in particular since I was right next to Speaker. So we built Chicken Pizza when we didn't have any other wonder options available at the time. Great Library was an option but because we were going for culture I actually did not want to build it as it would result in tons of GPs for Scientists and we didn't need those. Additionally I didn't want to pop too many GPs in India so that I didn't raise the GPP counter for ASM unnecessarily. BUt all the other wonders were fair game. We kept trading the marble and stone around for the cathedrals and Herimitage.

I honestly think given the experience we have now we could have shaved a ton of turns of our win time. There are so many things I simply wasn't sure about in terms of effectiveness and what would end up being the quickest way to culture. I thought that as a team we were slow to build cathedrals and hermitage. I think ASM only built 1 cathedral! We had 3 religions but we never got Islam spread and China and India only had 2 cathedrals each! To compensate each city has hermitage, but still the lack of cathedrals bothered me.

My lowest point and greatest frustration came in the middle of game just before Luddite had to go. It was obvious to me that we would have to get very luck with people not realizing and coming after us and I just didn't think it would be possible to hide what we were doing. Interestingly, when Luddite left I actually became MORE invested in the game. I suddenly had to manage two civs and it put things in a better perspective. I told Luddite I would carry on as best as possible. Luddite had been the real optimist of the team so with him gone I sort of had to try and cheer myself up.

Also the most important thing was that when I took over I suddenly found a lot of things to do. Luddite, no offense but you had really under-whipped your civ. You hadn't spread religions enough nor gotten temples up for the cathedrals now that would have been fine except that we needed to switch the stone between us to build cathedrals so I had to rush enough temples in China in order to build the two cathedrals quickly. If we had huts built the one and then swapped the stone over it would have been disastrous because of the 10T time limit before canceling deals. The timing would have been screwed. So I got obsessed with that and working the stone and marble around to build Hermitages and cathedrals as quickly and efficiently as possible. Also I was suddenly faced with a threat from T3 souht of Macau that I had to respond to with the meager forces Luddite had under-prepared. smile

The point here is that Luddite had made micro errors and I had too. We had gotten into a funk. But when he left that got shook up, the light went on and I started to really fix a lot of the stuff that we had been doing wrong. I found that I too had been too passive with whip-use in my lands and spreading temples/monasteries. Culture wears at you because you are doing it in a vacuum. You don't know what the other teams are doing. You're not actively engaging them. You're trying to appear weak and sometimes you take on your appearance and you do stop trying hard. Every now and then you need something to shake things up.

About ASM. He was in it the whole way. Very invested and as such helped to keep me invested because I didn't want to let him down. ASM will be the first to tell you he's not that great at civ (see the above conversation) but he really did carry his weight in terms of being actively involved, trying to keep a list of things that we needed to do and accomplishing the tasks set before himself. At times ASM provided me goals, and I am goal oriented. So that really helped.

While reading the lurker thread I was laughing at how many were commenting on me getting lazy and focused and the difference between my play depending on which I am. I totally agree. One of the things about this game and my play here at RB in civ in general over the last few months is that I've been stretched too thin. For most of the time I've been involved in 5-6-7 games concurrently and never less. Only recently with 29 and 32 ending have I gotten down to 2 and now with only PB7 left I'm at 1! I'm glad for that and I think I will keep it that way. The funny thing is that PB6 really has been getting a lot of my energy recently and I really think that started when Luddite had to go.

About the victory I just want to say that yes we were lucky. We were lucky that T1 did not realize what was actually happening. But we also were prepared to take advantage of that fact. Our whole gameplan was based on the idea that the other teams would be caught off guard so in fact you could say we had planned for T1's obliviousness. I'm proud that we had a plan when we started the game we stuck to it all the way through and we accomplished what we set out to do. It was awesome, and while I can't say I loved EVERY minute of it, I had fun with Luddite and ASM and our sign communication, I enjoyed collecting wonders, I was pumped when I got the chance to attack others and I had a blast through the last 20 turns. Everything was worth it.

Luddite, ASM thank you guys. Great teammates, great strategists and just as fucking crazy as me to even attempt it in the first place.

To all my opponents thank you for the great game. To the lurkers thanks for watching and enjoying the blazing finish as much as we did.

I'm sure I'll have more to say before this is over, but this is a good start. smile
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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Just curious ASM/Luddite/Lewwyn...I know oledavy read my 24 thread pretty closely for the signs of impending CV, did you guys look at 24 at all? I was boggled by the lack of death camps/Pacifism (soldiers are corpses for the walls, no need to give them Theo XP).
If only you and me and dead people know hex, then only deaf people know hex.

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I'd like to say that we'd had a really good plan but we really didn't know what we were doing until we turned on the culture. I was looking for an MP write up for a culture win and didn't have any luck.

If I knew that existed... smile
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
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Commodore Wrote:Just curious ASM/Luddite/Lewwyn...I know oledavy read my 24 thread pretty closely for the signs of impending CV, did you guys look at 24 at all? I was boggled by the lack of death camps/Pacifism (soldiers are corpses for the walls, no need to give them Theo XP).

Couple things here. We didn't want to tip the hand too much on how close we were getting. I thought about starving all of ASMs cities down and I almost asked him to do it, but he really need the pop for gold. Th ething you really have to keep in mind here is we were juggling gold like mad. We had massive armies and we simply could not all run pacifism, our units would have disbanded. Also with theo the extra promos gave us more flexibility in defense. We didn't have to turtle corpse wall. We chose to in the end because the stacks were so advanced, but up until that point the extra promos gave us a better shot. I don't think I could have taken Omar without those promos. Could we have gotten more artists faster by starving all of our pops? Yes but we also would have cause a huge invasion that we would not have been able to stop. It was a fine line, a balancing act.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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antisocialmunky Wrote:I'd like to say that we'd had a really good plan but we really didn't know what we were doing until we turned on the culture. I was looking for an MP write up for a culture win and didn't have any luck.

If I knew that existed... smile

THIS. We didn't REALLY know how fast we would be able to get culture or how hard it would be to get all the infrastructure in place. None of us had done this before. Maybe we should have done more sims. But I'm sorry to say I'm not usually a spreadsheet/sim kinda guy. I do a lot of things by instinct and intuition. I do do a lot of early micro in games but not to the degree where I'm planning 50 turns in advance. Plus like I said I just didn't have the time to put the effort into sims and spreadsheets. I was playing 6 turns of different civ games a day.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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Great writeup Lewwyn. Yeah, it's easy to find fault with all of our micro, but that's what happens when you're trying something new and have only a vague idea of what it's supposed to look like. I originally thought we could win culture before any other team could field an army of rifles... definitely would not have gone for this if I knew that we would be facing infantry and machine guns at the end.

I actually thought Commodore got the idea from US, seeing as how PBEM24 started and finished after this game started.
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Oh, and another Gaspar gem:
http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showp...tcount=266

Well, here's your Ron Paul victory...
http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=33502
and here's your Michael Bay movie without explosions...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2211125/

what is this world coming to???
Still waiting for that new Firaxis game though
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