The Kuriotates: A Tale of Centaurs, Hubris, and Unbridled Enthusiasm

[HidingKneel]

I don't think it's actually possible to build a wonder in a settlement, even with an engineer. But I'm not sure it would be a good idea in any case. I agree that Selrahc's plan seems a little nuts. He's still got one city (last I checked) and minimal production. With one city, his economy won't be able to support a huge horde of marked units. Is he planning to expand before he starts pumping them out? If so, why didn't he expand first? Also, even if he does manage to pull off a huge boost to the AC, he's at best handing the game to Hyborem, who won't be bothered by armageddon in the slightest.

But I think Selrahc's plan is going to come crashing down under its own weight. I say we stick to the centaur gameplan. Somewhere around turns 60-65, he'll find himself swarmed with centaurs. Even if he has PoR and warrens in place by then, we'd be able to slow his plan to a crawl just by pillaging all his improvements.

Even from a pragmatic standpoint, I don't think building the PoR ourselves is the right move. Sure, it would completely take Selrahc out of the game, and potentially weaken Bob. But I think Selrahc's already mostly taken himself out of the game, and I'm starting to get more worried about Plako and Ilios. Better to use that engineer in a way that boosts our position, since that'll help us against everyone.

[Mardoc]

But I think Selrahc's plan is going to come crashing down under its own weight. I say we stick to the centaur gameplan. Somewhere around turns 60-65, he'll find himself swarmed with centaurs. Even if he has PoR and warrens in place by then, we'd be able to slow his plan to a crawl just by pillaging all his improvements.

Even from a pragmatic standpoint, I don't think building the PoR ourselves is the right move. Sure, it would completely take Selrahc out of the game, and potentially weaken Bob. But I think Selrahc's already mostly taken himself out of the game, and I'm starting to get more worried about Plako and Ilios. Better to use that engineer in a way that boosts our position, since that'll help us against everyone.

I think you're underestimating Selrahc here. Assuming PoR comes in at T50, and that he's already gotten his Warrens built, AND NO OTHER AC BOOSTS EXIST WHATSOEVER, Blight hits on T60, the first Horseman on T63, the second on T66, the third on T69...can we really kill a horseman every 3 turns, while in blight, with centaurs?

And, sure, his economy will eventually come crashing, but he's only got to make it something like 30 turns, with an ending military of 60 marked units, in the case where he feels the need to hit AC 100, all by himself. Absolute worst case for him - assumes no extra AC from Buboes getting kills, from cities getting razed, and that he has to hit AC 100: it's a cost of 30 turns*60units/2 or 900 gold. Realistically - I think by the time the horsemen are in the world, AC will start to take off by itself, due to razings - and if it makes it to Buboes (AC 50), it's probably impossible to rein in. And that's only 15 turns*30 units/2 or 225 gold.

You think it's impossible that Selrahc has 225 gold in his vaults to pay maintenance, now that he needs no more tech? Really? No, his plan won't die on its own, we've got to kill it.

All that said, I'm fine with sticking to centaurs - but we'd best pick up the pace, if so. We need to be in his lands by the time Ragnarok is built, really, killing his unmarked units so that we can kill his marked units before Blight hits. With Conquest/App centaurs, so that they're CI/Shock and have decent odds against his bounty from the Horde. If we can start killing on T55, say, and kill 2-3 units/turn, then we can keep the AC suppressed. And, if we do that right, we can even pick up a ton of XP that we can then use against Hyborem/Bob later, or plako or Ilios too.

[HidingKneel]

Maybe "under its own weight" wasn't exactly the right way to put it.
How about "under the weight of the military of 3 other civs trying to stop him"? I'm not proposing to ignore him: only that the single-mindedness of his plan makes him vulnerable in all sorts of ways. Left unmolested, he can surely get the AC pretty high. But how fast can he do that with no improved tiles? The 225 gold he can probably manage, but the 900 I doubt. Also, we can divide the AC by two any time we like, at the cost of a settler (which I think Kwythellar can get out in 3 turns). This will slow Selrahc down further, and burden him with more upkeep (since he still needs the marked units he's already produced). Not to mention, Plako and Ilios probably also have some plans to put in motion.

And if Selrahc does manage to get some horsemen out, it isn't necessarily game over. If Buboes spawns in our backyard, we'll be in trouble. But we might never even see him/them. I've also seen Stephanos get himself killed by fortified warriors.

But I hear you: we're going full steam ahead on operation "Centaur" .
Just as soon as we get past this one little snag:

This is a tracker for RB_FFH_XXI

It's turn 36
Ilios has the save.
32 hours 53 minutes passed since the save has been handed on.

[Mardoc]

But how fast can he do that with no improved tiles?

Well, he only needs 10 hammers/turn to 1-turn goblins. So quite potentially just as fast, if he's grown his capital enough and has forests.

But I take your point, the AC rush is probably pretty vulnerable when people know it's coming. We'll just have to go ahead and prove that . And honestly, the biggest vulnerablity is this: his best unit is a Str 3, un coppered, presumably unpromoted warrior. He can't farm barbs for XP, his beeline left him with no other military options and no income to get to them, probably no copper - it does mean that CI/Shock centaurs ought to get pretty decent odds even on fortified warriors in his capital. That's the main thing in my view - don't bother with pillaging him into the ground, just kill the marked units directly.

And, of course, we still need to figure out what to do about Bob. Hyborem rushing is a much more robust strategy when you have an island fortress to do it from I really like the razing AV before he revolts idea, but it requires we have a force on standby, not busy killing goblins.

[HidingKneel]

Well, with the golden age, I imagine we'll be getting our first centaur built shortly after turn 50. I'm thinking I'll send him directly at Selrahc (or maybe Bob; depends on whether he's founded AV by then), without bothering to make a stack. We can start pillaging immediately when we get there. If Selrahc wants to waste half his garrison killing a single C1/S1 centaur, he's welcome to: we'll get a second centaur there a turn later (once we get into war mode, Kwythellar ought to be able to make centaurs in 1 turn, and Avelorn in 2). Once a decent-size force has gathered (maybe 5?), we can stop pillaging and start attacking in with most of the centaurs, leaving the others to protect our wounded.

[HidingKneel]

Alright, let's see how our Kuriotate empire is doing.

Between turns, Naggarond has fended off a vicious barbarian attack. There are still some barbarians camped on that hill, preventing us from building a road that passes through our wheat farm:



No problem. Roadwork is proceeding on schedule. Next turn, we'll connect three happy resources to Naggarond, just in time for it to grow. The turn after, we'll have a road connecting Naggarond to Avelorn, and Kwythellar will be connected the turn after that.

Speaking of Avelorn, let's have a look:



Finished its monument at EOT, so we'll be able to work that gold in three turns. Build is currently set to tailor, but maybe we should slot in a quick warrior before the pacifism swap; a one-warrior garrison is a little too chancy for my taste.

Last but not least, our glorious capital:



Connected the incense this turn for a nice commerce boost.
Another barbarian incoming, but we've got a C2 warrior in the city who ought to be able to handle that.

Feeling kind of silly having my scout camped next to that spider, I noted its location and sent the scout south. He can make himself useful by locating Plako and/or Ilios. Or by getting eaten by a griffon, which will save us some upkeep.

Mysticism due in two turns. Our science rate ought to raise dramatically over the next several turns. Gold in Naggarond, trade connections, elder councils, sages. Not long after that, we'll have a great sage (I'm thinking academy in Avelorn) and tailors in both Kwythellar and Avelorn (with cotton, silk, and dyes all connected).

Demographics:



Breakeven science rate: just under 50%.

[Mardoc]

I'm definitely glad you went with Myst over Edu - there's no way we had the worker turns for cottages just yet. I'm sure we'll catch up, I just hadn't realized how much there still was to do! We've got, what, 7 workers now, for three cities? Still, it's encouraging to see the progress.

A couple minor comments:

If the spider hasn't attacked, then I'm confident it's stuck like every other spider in borders. We don't need the warrior next to it anymore, then. Perhaps he should go camp 1N of the Dragon Bones?

Does Kwythellar have a Tailor yet? Now that we're about to have the cloth resources hooked up, that would be a major boost to our GNP. It wouldn't hurt to build Tailors in Naggarond and Avelorn, of course, but without the Palace/incense/gems trio to feed through, those won't help quite as much. From your screenshot, I count 30 commerce/turn going to Kwy; a Tailor would be worth 9 more, therefore, *before* the Academy/God King, and before cottages, for that matter.

Granted, I won't complain about having workers on hand, with all the roads and mines to be built and Education on the horizon .

Anyway, I'm very encouraged to see the rate of our growth, and I'm sure that growth rate will continue for a good while.

[HidingKneel]

Played another turn. Not much to report. Both barbarian warriors suicided themselves on Naggarond, leaving our territory barbarian-free for a short while. There's another warrior on the horizon, though, and it doesn't look like I'll be able to intercept it before it can pillage a winery.

I'm definitely glad you went with Myst over Edu - there's no way we had the worker turns for cottages just yet. I'm sure we'll catch up, I just hadn't realized how much there still was to do! We've got, what, 7 workers now, for three cities? Still, it's encouraging to see the progress.

As of end of turn, we've got nine workers. It looks like I'll be able to finish both road connections next turn. There's still a ton of work to do, though. Kwythellar needs a copper mine, there are several more corns to farm around Naggarond. Many resources to connect everywhere, and Avelorn only has one improvement atm (not counting the windmill that was already there).
I don't think we'll be ready to start cottaging in the immediate future, so I'm thinking animal husbandry next. Should get it done reasonably quickly, and I'm guessing there are several horse resources in our territory.

If the spider hasn't attacked, then I'm confident it's stuck like every other spider in borders. We don't need the warrior next to it anymore, then. Perhaps he should go camp 1N of the Dragon Bones?

I'm sending it towards Avelorn, so that Avelorn doesn't need to stop to build a warrior of its own.

Meanwhile, our scout went south. Immediately after leaving our territory I spotted a griffon. We'll probably lose it between turns. But I'm fine with that; I'd really prefer not to pay the extra upkeep.

Does Kwythellar have a Tailor yet? Now that we're about to have the cloth resources hooked up, that would be a major boost to our GNP. It wouldn't hurt to build Tailors in Naggarond and Avelorn, of course, but without the Palace/incense/gems trio to feed through, those won't help quite as much.

Excellent point, and I think a mistake on my part. We'll have cotton connected next turn, and silk two turns later (dyes will have to wait a bit).
I should have started a tailor two turns ago, instead of that ninth worker.
I'll get on it next turn. By my estimate, we can finish both an elder council and a tailor in the next four turns, with our golden-age and god-king boosted production. (Avelorn will have one soon too, though it'll give minimal benefits there.)

Naggarond and Avelorn both grew this turn, pushing our maintenance costs up. Breakeven science rate: back to 40%.

[Mardoc]

It's *really* hard, as a dedlurker, to even entertain the possibility of there being too many workers I know that once you catch up to the worker techs you've unlocked, 9 will feel like overkill, but for now they're all needed. Especially if that extra worker turns out to be the cause of getting the gold or dyes connected earlier.

[Commodore]

One comment about Education, I know it's a bit early to cottage (alas, we'll be charred husks all before enclaves), but with all the Patrias, how much of a hammer boost would Education yield?