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Leader / Civ selection

Hmm, seems I missed this topic earlier.

Based on the voting sheet, it seems we have a few general preferences. Of course, everything depends on what other teams pick... but nevertheless, these are the things that we seem to like the idea of:

Generally preferred traits:
1. FIN
2. SPI/EXP
3. CRE/IND/IMP

Generally preferred leaders:
1. Pacal/Mansa/Isabella
2. Willem/Huayna/Gandhi
3. Sury/Ramesses/Bismarck

Generally preferred civs:
1. India
2. Inca
3. Egypt/Mali
4. China

If I missed anything, let me know.

Something to think about: Assuming India and Inca survive to our pick (which they won't necessarily, as all teams except the two French sites are picking before us)... AND that a good number of our top leader picks remain (remembering that only two sites will choose civs/leaders after us)... would it be worth going for civ before leader? Or still leader first? smile
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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My pref:

[SIZE="5"]TRAITS[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]Financial[/SIZE] - clearly the best trait for this setting (9 teams, no tech trading, normal game). It would be a shame if we can't get it. This single trait is so important that the second trait is ... secondary lol

My pick order:

[SIZE="4"]Huayna Capac[/SIZE] - Industrious - very good here. I know I value him higher than most of you, but I have my reasons. Some early wonders are so gamebreaking that I would choose Huayna above Pacal or Willem.
Great Lighthouse - it has no multiplier so +50% from Industrius trait can seal it for us, and if we have coastal start, it could give us the game. It's worth to mention, that Great Merchant from it could bulb Civil Service.
Stonehange - makes creative trait laughable, not to mention it gives us fast Great Prophet.
Pyramids - I know we probably don't want it without a stone, but it's good to have an option to chase it even without it if we realy have to. And with stone it becomes an easy choice.
Great Wall - It depends on the settings, but if we have raging barbs, I would take it for sure, and then we can spawn Great Spy and make Sommerswerd think twice about espionage in future games.
There are many others Wonders, which we definitly wanted to have such as Oracle, Great Library or Mousoleum of Maussollos, and Industrius will help us with that.

Apart from World Wonders Industrius speed up National Wonders too. What's not to love in early Moai, Heroic, or National Epic, or Oxford if we are at it smile

But it's not all Industrious can gives us, the big factor are cheap forges too. With forges costed 60 hammers, we can spam it almost everywhere. +25% hammers is huge at the begining. Every chop or pop whip gives us 37 hammers instead of 30 (with Organized Religion it's 45). Not only we could speed up production, but we could whip buildings we otherwise could't. Like double whiping something istead of waiting to triple whip it later.
Oh, and forges gives us happiness too jive Taking into acount that happiness is the main limiting factor at the start and gold, gems, and silver are apart from fur (ice and tundra only) and ivory (doubt that anyone have it) the only early happiness resources, we could easly say that forges double almost all the happiness we can have at the beggining of the game.

To sum it up, Industrius trait can help us during the entire game, and it will help us at the moments we need the help at most. Like when chasing the Wonders. The help here is not the difference between having someting now or having it later, but the difference between having it now or not having it at all. Oh and it's the most fun trait too jive Imagine the amusment factor of runing financial, Great Lighthouse, Colossus civ.


[SIZE="4"]Elizabeth[/SIZE] - Philosophical - very good. I think we can quite leverage early GPs. Very early Academy come to my mind or Civil Service Great Marchant bulb. Not to mention quick Oxford thanks to cheap Universities.


[SIZE="4"]Ragnar[/SIZE] - Aggressive - Good trait too. Apart from it's name it helps most at defence not at offence. It's easy to defend with highly promoted one-move troops. But if we can pair it with Romans we have power to swing the early game to our favor, or with Zulus and we can have the most versatile and highly mobile early unit, with which we can harass, scout, defend harassment, or raze back cities at leisure.


[SIZE="4"]Pacal[/SIZE] - Expansive - cheap granaries are very good, cheaper workers are good too but if we don't have 4 hammers at the start (plain hill start and 2 hammers tile or normal start and forested plain hill) we lost much of it. +2 health and cheap Harbours are nice to have but nothing gamebraking. If we could pair Pacal with Inca, it would be clearly the best bet, but I doubt it would happend rolleye The worst part of Expansive is that it diminish quickly as the game last, and by the mid game it's just meh... This is not a quick game with 2 cities elimination, and probably will last up to Renesance or higher, in which case expansive is just plain weak.


[SIZE="4"]Willem van Oranje[/SIZE] - Creative - +2 culture at the start is huge. It could be my first bet if there was no Stonhange. This little early wonder (120 hammers) makes its owner almost creative itself. That's why I value Huayna Capac higher here. Cheap libraries are nice too but not so much that cheap forges. The same as with Pacal, it's powers diminish very quickly.

[SIZE="4"]Hannibal[/SIZE] - Charismatic - Nice trait. + 2 happiness is the most appealing part of it.


[SIZE="4"]Darius[/SIZE] - Organized - If it would be emperor difficulty or higher, it would be my first bet, but here it's just 7th. -50% civ upkeep at prince difficulty aren't much but cheap lighthouses, courthouses and factories are good by itself.


[SIZE="4"]Mansa Musa[/SIZE] - Spiritual - I think most of you value him higher that he deserved. If we would play with RB mod, yeap it would be much higher, but it's vanila BTS. I agree that rapid civics changes are good, but at the start, we have only few to choose from, and later we have Golden Ages to do that. Yeap it requires better planning, but planning is what we are good at lol After the change of Golden Ages Spiritual drasticly slides down on my wish list.


[SIZE="5"]CIVILIZATIONS[/SIZE]

It greatly depends on our leader choice, but I list them just to remember our options.

[SIZE="4"]Inca[/SIZE] - yeap Terraces are overpower.

[SIZE="4"]Byzantine[/SIZE] - Cataphracts are overpower too bow

[SIZE="4"]Zulus[/SIZE] - I thing most of you undervalue the power of Impis. They are probably the most versatile unit in the entire game. They can choke our oponents early, they are the best scouts, the are ultimate pilagers, they are the best harassing unit, able to raze lightly defended back cities, they are the best pilager slayers, and the best defence against Horse Archers. All of this in one early unit. But if we realy want to go that way we definitely need Ragnar as our leader.

[SIZE="4"]Rome[/SIZE] - If we can pair it with Ragnar, we would demolish the early game. It's insurance policy and a big club in one. I doubt anyone would be interested in waring with us. And Rome has 2 best techs to start with.

[SIZE="4"]England[/SIZE] - draftable Redcoats are power to fear off, especialy if they are aggressive too. The same as Rome as of starting techs.

[SIZE="4"]India[/SIZE] - I value it much lower than most of you. If it would be a quick speed game I agree it's clearly number 1, but on normal speed it's just ok, and on epic it's just weak.

[SIZE="4"]Mali[/SIZE] - Skirmishers are like an insurance policy, but we need to discover archery ASAP, which is not on the list of much needed techs early.
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Well, as most folks around here can guess, you won't be hearing any disagreements from me about the power of Industrious. tongue I'm definitely a fan of Huayna Capac. wink

Though I'd mention that with Plako making the map, it's likely he'll have stuff like the power of the Great Lighthouse in mind.

Also, I'd be very surprised if Huayna stuck around until our pick. He's a well known and well loved leader, and 6 sites have the option to choose him before us.
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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Sullla Wrote:I would advise waiting to see what other teams ahead of us pick. Until that happens, discussion here is pretty pointless. We all know who the best civs and leaders are already from playing so many previous games.

This.

Catwalk, there will be plenty of discussion once it's out turn to pick.
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Forgive me for saying this... but I believe all the people in here have played a lot of Civ4 before and roughly know all the strong leaders and civs. Unless of course someone wants Greece? We can afford to wait till our turn to pick.
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Amelia Wrote:Forgive me for saying this... but I believe all the people in here have played a lot of Civ4 before.

I assume so, otherwise the discussion would be pointless ... smoke

Amelia Wrote:and roughly know all the strong leaders and civs.

... but there is no agreement between us as to which of the leaders is better than others, and I want to discuss that.

Amelia Wrote:We can afford to wait till our turn to pick.

I am affraid the 24h timer could not be enough to properly discuss our pick.
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What is the difficulty of the map going to be? If it's higher than Prince (I seem to recall a few teams voting for Immortal/Deity), it might be worthwhile to pick Organized.
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Only one team voted for Immortal/Deity (the Germans), I guess hoping to abuse Organized or something. Other teams have voted for Monarch; lots still haven't decided or are happy to go with whatever.
Lord Parkin
Past games: Pitboss 4 | Pitboss 7 | Pitboss 14Pitboss 18 | Pitboss 20 | Pitboss 21
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Mortius Wrote:I assume so, otherwise the discussion would be pointless ... smoke



... but there is no agreement between us as to which of the leaders is better than others, and I want to discuss that.



I am affraid the 24h timer could not be enough to properly discuss our pick.

Whilst I understand your point of view, I think there is a growing consensus of which leaders are rated. That consensus isn't something made up on a whim. I don't think India are great because Sullla played them well in PB2. I think India are great because fast workers are obscenely useful in starting the snowball.

Capac is not a bad leader at all. He is a very strong leader. I'd also bet two shiny pennies that he is picked before us. He's a magnet because he's obviously strong. For the same reason, I don't expect Isabella to be picked before us. We, as a community in general, rate spiritual and expansive highly for good reason. They have been thoroughly tested over many games.

There was mention of which we should pick first- leader or civ. In my opinion, this is easy:

IF India or Inca are available- we pick them. If not, we pick a leader.
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Kyan Wrote:There was mention of which we should pick first- leader or civ. In my opinion, this is easy:

IF India or Inca are available- we pick them. If not, we pick a leader.

I agree with this, though I'm not 100% sold on Inca, depending on what EXP leaders are out there. If Pacal and Isabella are both taken by then, while Willem or Mansa are still around, I might be tempted to go leader first
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