Leader / Civ selection

[Lord Parkin]

You do better in base hammers with Pacal, at least initially. Huayna is more of a long term investment - you get a modifier when you need it most, to lay claim to some of the most powerful items in the game. Getting them increases beakers and great people, and eventually hammers.

I'd rather go with a long-term investment in a game like this. Not to say that Pacal isn't great, his benefits are just slightly more confined to the start of the game, and he gains more from quick starts on lower maintenance maps with faster research - none of which are the case here.

[Sian]

A team picking Boudicia probably wouldn't take account for Vultures instead of axes when picking Targets

[luddite]

Zulu is Hunting/Mining start. Rather not have a scout start. Sumeria is Agr/Wheel.

actually it's hunting/agriculture. Not as good as Ag/wheel but still workable.

[Lewwyn]

Map is huge, not much chance their axes make it to us without a bit of forewarning. Thus chariots.

I would be fine with IND, I think its an undervalued trait. However EXP is simply a huge boost esp on a huge map. What happens when we lose a wonder race? Its the difference between heaven and hell. EXP is the more stable and overall civ boosting trait.

[mostly_harmless]

Excel sheet voting is a bit messed up right now with two similar categories:
"Leader preference"(line 49) and "What is your pick" (line 80)

mh

[SleepingMoogle]

Early game is all about the snowball. The better you can make it, the more it will impact your later game.

Pacal or maybe Willem feel like the best options for this. I like the idea behind HC, but Ind gets progressively weaker the more people take it. And there's still a lot of leaders to be picked after we select ours.

We can also try and compile best of 4 lists for each leader to gauge how likely we'll be to pair our leader with the desired Civ. (ie, Sumeria is nice but what's plans B, C and D if another team takes it?)

Edit: I still think it fairly likely we would be able to pick up Byzanthium. Phracts would come in roughly at the time we can start looking to invade a neighbor right?

[Sian]

But byz have horribad starting techs

[darrelljs]

I would be fine with IND, I think its an undervalued trait. However EXP is simply a huge boost esp on a huge map. What happens when we lose a wonder race? Its the difference between heaven and hell. EXP is the more stable and overall civ boosting trait.

Yeah...IND is underrated but lets not overreact and put it above EXP.

Darrell

[sunrise089]

Lot's of good discussion

I'll reiterate that I've not heard a convincing case yet for why Ind or Spi is so buffed by the map settings to suddenly beat out Exp or Cre (when paired with Fin). Obviously Ind/Spi have reasons to be better on the margin than they normally are, but I have a hard time thinking Pacal suddenly got that much worse relative to the normal second tier picks.

IMHO Moogle is right above - Civ is a snowball game (look how well Imperio did in the Apolyton demogame without great tactics or strategy - they used their awesome land and it took us forever to catch them). If we have more cities with more improved tiles and more pop working them I'm not terribly concerned if we have one fewer wonder. Plus most high-level human games show Ind is rarely the difference maker. Sure it is if you're at the same tech pace (so for GWall and/or Henge pretty much by default), and if you both/neither have a resource doubler. But it's more common that civ X is in position to put 10 chops into a wonder the turn it comes online than it is for civ Y to slow-build a wonder and land it due to a 20t build over someone else's 25t attempt.

[nabaxo]

Here's another perspective: Maybe the Spanish team are deliberately picking a bad leader and civ just purely out of cockiness? They think they can beat everyone, despite their awful choices?