Leader / Civ selection

[pindicator]

Or it's a by-product of espionage being on. Why pick a civ who can tech well when you can just steal everything?

[luddite]

Lot's of good discussion

I'll reiterate that I've not heard a convincing case yet for why Ind or Spi is so buffed by the map settings to suddenly beat out Exp or Cre (when paired with Fin). Obviously Ind/Spi have reasons to be better on the margin than they normally are, but I have a hard time thinking Pacal suddenly got that much worse relative to the normal second tier picks.

Basically, because the main advantage of expansive is that it lets you grow faster in the very early game, so it gets nerfed by anything that slows down the game because that will decrease the importance of early growth. With these settings, the main limiting factor of expansion is going to be maintenance, not early growth, and there's plenty of time for wonders (or Organized) to accumulate a slow but steady advantage. In particular, being the only IND civ would almost guarantee us the great wall, giving us the huge advantage of not having to deal with (emperor level!) barbarians and a nice espionage boost.

Expansive is also kind of a gamble, because a lot of its benefit is getting that first worker several turns faster, but there's no guarantee that that's possible.

I won't argue for SPI though... if LP is right about how spy missions work, then even SPI is useless for defending against civic swaps.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Or it's a by-product of espionage being on. Why pick a civ who can tech well when you can just steal everything?

Sounds like a fine strategy if you're aim is to be the second team into space. :neenernee

In all seriousness, though, even if they can stay at near tech parity, this won't get them over the top, even with an AGG/CHA attack, until late game war advantages go over to the attacker. Do we really see Boudica having that kind of staying power? I don't.

[darrelljs]

Expansive is also kind of a gamble, because a lot of its benefit is getting that first worker several turns faster, but there's no guarantee that that's possible.

That's always true, but doesn't change the fact EXP is a top three trait.

Anyway as I've said before, when we want the first 5-6 Workers will be unchanged by the game settings, and that along with half cost Granaries still makes EXP far better than IND, and better than CRE or SPI.

Darrell

[Sullla]

I think that may well be the first time I've ever agreed with a post from darrell. Shock doesn't even begin to describe it.

Seriously, don't overthink this. Fin/Exp is the best pairing in the game. Arguing for anything else is rather silly, like Ind because maybe we might possibly get some wonders that might be helpful. I like Ind and Spi too, but they don't beat Fin/Exp.

[SevenSpirits]

Basically, because the main advantage of expansive is that it lets you grow faster in the very early game, so it gets nerfed by anything that slows down the game because that will decrease the importance of early growth. With these settings, the main limiting factor of expansion is going to be maintenance, not early growth, and there's plenty of time for wonders (or Organized) to accumulate a slow but steady advantage. In particular, being the only IND civ would almost guarantee us the great wall, giving us the huge advantage of not having to deal with (emperor level!) barbarians and a nice espionage boost.

The heavier costs we pay per citizen due to the settings are more than compensated for by FIN. Increasing the rate at which we add FIN cottages is a no-brainer.

[ironstar]

Here's another perspective: Maybe the Spanish team are deliberately picking a bad leader and civ just purely out of cockiness? They think they can beat everyone, despite their awful choices?

Or maybe they just like boobies.

[T-hawk]

I agree with the consensus, Exp over Ind. For a city with a granary and 1.5 workers, Expansive already saved 52.5 hammers, and produced some additional production on the turn economy advantage from growing sooner. Six cities in the early game means well over 300 hammers saved and another couple hundred from turn economy. Ind doesn't get there until you've built 600-900 hammers worth of wonders or forges, which takes quite some time. In a game this large, civs will compete only for wonders for which they have the resource doubler, halving the Industrious advantage. And finally the +2 health will help into the industrial era.

Or maybe they just like boobies.

That doesn't work, your own leader's picture isn't ever shown in-game. :neenernee

[ironstar]

That doesn't work, your own leader's picture isn't ever shown in-game. :neenernee

Maybe their mod fixes that! Like an SC2 in game portrait.

[mostly_harmless]

Or maybe they just like boobies.

But they never going to see them in-game ...
So maybe they did it for all the other teams.

mh