Huh. So the important thing, then, is getting Basium on the board ASAP. I'm surprised and relieved to see that's enough . Although I guess I shouldn't be, given the effect of collateral on every other FFH war that's been fought.
That said, it sounds like the highest priority after surviving this wave is to get some collateral on the board! Unfortunately, religious collateral is pretty much unavailable to us until High Priests (assuming Veil is off limits), and arcane collateral is unavailable to us until we get some 10 XP adepts. So perhaps we should settle for catapults and suicidal Basium axes? Which would mean Bronze and Construction next, once we're out of emergency mode.
Long term, I like the idea of having our collateral be either Empyrean or Order High Priests, perhaps supplemented by Chalid . We ought to be able to get there by the time we're switching traits again, anyway.
Let's not start celebrating yet. Bob might decide to show up early. Getting Basium on turn 81 depends on being able to get SoKs from my other cities safely to Naggarond, which might be tricky if he's choking me with beasts.
Another tricky point is if he divides his forces. Say he comes calling with just four beasts. It'd be a shame to fire the worldspell in that case, but they'd be tough to kill without it.
Ideally Bob will wait long enough to get what looks like overwhelming force, come at us with all of it, and only realize that Basium is in play when he's already halfway to our cities. But a lot could go wrong.
HidingKneel Wrote:Hmm... had another look at the beginning of turn 72. I'm going to revise my ETA of Bob's forces. His city was already size 9, and he'll be getting two more manes next turn (oops ). Working an engineer, it looks like that'll give him a base of 22 hammers. Add in +50% for God King, +25% for a forge, +50% for the infernal palace, and +10% for nationhood, and we're up 52 hammers. He's got two more turns of golden age (add another 10 base hammers, bringing in an extra 23 hammers those two turns), and some amount of overflow from grimoire (let's estimate that at 22 hammers, half of his current non-military output). That's a total of 68 + 52N hammers produced in N turns. That means a full set of beasts + Mardero will be out at the end of turn 79. Assuming his stack moves 2 tiles per turn, he'll be able to hit Kwythellar on turn 84 (that's his turn 84, which comes after our turn 84), or Naggarond on turn 83.
Anyway, I ran some sims using worldbuilder. Took all our centaurs, with the promotions they have now (added combat promotions for those who are available to take them). Assume fully healed and attacking on open ground.
Assume Bob brings Hyborem (C2/Drill 4), 4 beasts (C1), Rosier (C5), Mardero (C4), and 1 longbow (C1). I think that's certainly at the upper end of what he might bring. I ran five battles, first burning Basium's worldspell and then sending the centaurs in.
Any chance he is able to produce something out of the barb city that he flipped? A diseased corpse, for example, to place in Cauldron Lake to free up a second mobility longbow?
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Merovech Wrote:Any chance he is able to produce something out of the barb city that he flipped? A diseased corpse, for example, to place in Cauldron Lake to free up a second mobility longbow?
Oh, there's a good chance he can produce something. One diseased corpse does not equal one free longbow, though! That particular approach would just be an invitation to raze Hyborem's homeland instead of fighting the puppies.
Maybe it can make one Beast while Cauldron Lake makes the rest of that stack.
I don't think the flipped city can produce enough to matter on this wave. Assuming we beat him off again and it becomes a battle of attrition, that's when it'll start to matter. Although as Bob spreads out, our mobility advantage ought to help us.
HidingKneel Wrote:Let's not start celebrating yet.
...good point. Even if everything goes according to plan, the RNG could still mess us up. And when does everything go according to plan, anyway? Not in my experience
I can wait to celebrate until this stack is dead. Might even manage to force myself to not celebrate until the Infernal Civilization has been destroyed, even .
Mardoc Wrote:Oh, there's a good chance he can produce something. One diseased corpse does not equal one free longbow, though! That particular approach would just be an invitation to raze Hyborem's homeland instead of fighting the puppies.
Maybe it can make one Beast while Cauldron Lake makes the rest of that stack.
I don't think the flipped city can produce enough to matter on this wave. Assuming we beat him off again and it becomes a battle of attrition, that's when it'll start to matter. Although as Bob spreads out, our mobility advantage ought to help us.
Okay, yeah, you've got to be right that moving that second longbow out would be incredibly risky, especially with your mobility. Looks like you guys are in great position. Good luck!
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Merovech Wrote:Looks like you guys are in great position. Good luck!
Wish I had your confidence! A few turns ago I thought we had this in the bag (which may have led me to engage in somewhat impulsive diplomacy ). But right now I feel like it could be anyone's game. Well, not Thoth, but anyone else. Ilios has overtaken us in score, Plako's not far behind, and Bob has the earliest access to top-tier units. I still think we're the most likely to win this thing, but it might be tight.
Anyways, the save is moving again, and I've played two more turns. Postimage is giving me grief, so no screenshots in this update. Here are the highlights:
1) On turn 73, the AC rose two points. Means Bob build a Beast that turn. Which leads me to believe he's planning on showing up early. If he was aiming to bring Mardero along, it would make sense to build Mardero first for the extra xp. No AC raise the next turn, so Bob's only got one beast so far.
Our mobility II centaur is fully healed, so I sent him in Bob's direction. Can confirm that the first beast hasn't started coming toward us yet. Next turn I'll try to get a look at Bob's capital.
2) Finished our first stonewarden at the end of turn 74. All production is now on SoKs.
3) Plako declared on Thoth. No idea what that's about.
4) I decided we need all our centaurs on the front lines, so I abandoned the city of Bedplank. There's a barbarian warrior heading for it, so presumably the barbarians will hold it soon.
5) In one more turn, Naggarond will hit the happy cap (unfortunately we have one unhappy face from war weariness). Can raise that with a temple of Kilmorph, but no time for that until after we build the gate (which will have the pleasant side-effect of eliminating our war weariness).
6) Killed a barbarian goblin with Alan Wake, getting him to 37 xp and another promotion.
7) One of our uninjured centaurs is exploring a dungeon in our territory. Results will be in at the start of turn 76.
8) Got a huge number of injured centaurs in Kwythellar. Between the herbalist and the stonewarden, we ought to be able to get those healed up fast, and ready to tussle with Bob.
Turn 75 is in. The AC went up again, so Bob must have produced another beast. I used my mobility centaur to take a peek at his capital:
Hmm... his diseased corpse is gone, presumably garrisoning the second city. Also, there's only one beast in the city. Makes me a little uneasy, but I can think of all sorts of places the other one might be. Standing on the Mirror of Heaven, for example.
Anyways, not much else to tell. Gearing up for a fight with Bob. Almost all of our centaurs are in Kwythellar, though some are on the way or out popping dungeons. Used the Stonewarden to cure one that got diseased by Thoth's diseased corpse. Next turn, I'll cast shield of faith on the whole lot of them.
Also due next turn: the results of our southern lair exploration, and fanaticism.
Ss of EOT, Naggarond is at the happy cap. I'm thinking I should let it grow a few sizes into unhappiness. The next two builds (Mercurian gate and Temple of Kilmorph) will both raise the happy cap, but we might want to be pumping out units with conquest then, so better to grow now while we can.
HidingKneel Wrote:Ss of EOT, Naggarond is at the happy cap. I'm thinking I should let it grow a few sizes into unhappiness. The next two builds (Mercurian gate and Temple of Kilmorph) will both raise the happy cap, but we might want to be pumping out units with conquest then, so better to grow now while we can.
Makes sense to me. The only thing that unhappy population costs is food, and our food surplus won't be doing anything useful unless/until we swap to Conquest.
Now that our sprint to Fanaticism is nearly complete, I've a few thoughts to throw out for consideration.
First...at least for the next couple turns while we're in Foreign Trade, it's probably worth working cottages instead of cotton. Not much of a commerce hit, and that way we aren't wasting our double-growth time. Wasn't going to suggest this earlier, because we needed Fanaticism ASAP, but now that we're in slightly less of a panic, it's probably worth investing for the future. Not worth swapping from gold or gems, and probably not even from silks, but our cottons are merely 2/0/3, so 2/0/1 cottages aren't much of a sacrifice. And when they become 3/1/7 Enclaves, we'll be glad we did.
Next tech - and even if we go 100% gold to buy Paladins, we'll be teching - my suggestion is Bronze Working. Mostly because we want Commodore to be able to build axemen. 30h for a Str 6 unit is pretty nice, and more so when it's destined to be an Angel upon death. After that, Construction makes a lot of sense. I *think* that we'll be able to benefit from Bronze sooner than from Construction, but I can see an argument for swapping that order. Mostly depends on how quickly Commodore's production ramps up: whether we want the ability to build Angelic Axes or Centaur Chargers first. Of course, absolute first priority for Commodore is to get his own set of Paladins on the field.
A worker detail. We should road the horses, so that Commodore has the option of building horsemen/chariots/Ophanim. In general, we could use a lot of roads, in fact, for military mobility. Only plako can possibly turn Raiders, so there's no downside.
Finally, a last little detail. I noticed that you're not promoting the Soldiers of Kilmorph. I'd be strongly tempted to give them Mobility I, to ensure they all arrive timely in Naggarond. We really don't intend for them to ever fight, so there's no particular reason to save their promos for later.
Turn 76 played. Not much to report. Examination of the AC reveals that Bob has built another beast. Our centaur was winded, so couldn't sprint next to the city again this turn (it would risk counterattack by Rosier). But at least it doesn't look like Bob's moved anything south. Which is more than we can say for the barbarians:
Looks like the garrison of Bob's old city has formed a kill team which is bearing down on us. I'm thinking we should take care of those ASAP. Want to be fully healed when Bob starts moving, and the extra XP won't hurt either.
Incidentally, the plains hill where that centaur is positioned looks like a pretty good spot for a Mercurian city. Gets corn, wheat, horses, bronze, razorweed, happiness bonus from penguins/standing stones, along with precious, precious nightmares. Also, it'll make a pretty good staging ground for assaults on Cauldron Lake.
Speaking of the Mercurians, fanaticism came in at EOT. We're on schedule to complete the gate on turn 81. Are you feeling ready, Commodore? (Incidentally, what timeslots are good for you? Not that we have any control over it anyway, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we'll be able to stick to the turn/day pace.) I should also PM THawk in the next day or two to request his help in advance.
Mardoc Wrote:Now that our sprint to Fanaticism is nearly complete, I've a few thoughts to throw out for consideration.
First...at least for the next couple turns while we're in Foreign Trade, it's probably worth working cottages instead of cotton. Not much of a commerce hit, and that way we aren't wasting our double-growth time. Wasn't going to suggest this earlier, because we needed Fanaticism ASAP, but now that we're in slightly less of a panic, it's probably worth investing for the future. Not worth swapping from gold or gems, and probably not even from silks, but our cottons are merely 2/0/3, so 2/0/1 cottages aren't much of a sacrifice. And when they become 3/1/7 Enclaves, we'll be glad we did.
Next tech - and even if we go 100% gold to buy Paladins, we'll be teching - my suggestion is Bronze Working. Mostly because we want Commodore to be able to build axemen. 30h for a Str 6 unit is pretty nice, and more so when it's destined to be an Angel upon death. After that, Construction makes a lot of sense. I *think* that we'll be able to benefit from Bronze sooner than from Construction, but I can see an argument for swapping that order. Mostly depends on how quickly Commodore's production ramps up: whether we want the ability to build Angelic Axes or Centaur Chargers first. Of course, absolute first priority for Commodore is to get his own set of Paladins on the field.
A worker detail. We should road the horses, so that Commodore has the option of building horsemen/chariots/Ophanim. In general, we could use a lot of roads, in fact, for military mobility. Only plako can possibly turn Raiders, so there's no downside.
Finally, a last little detail. I noticed that you're not promoting the Soldiers of Kilmorph. I'd be strongly tempted to give them Mobility I, to ensure they all arrive timely in Naggarond. We really don't intend for them to ever fight, so there's no particular reason to save their promos for later.
The cotton is a good idea. Forgot about it this turn, but I'll fix that next turn.
Agreed that bronzeworking should be our next tech. I'll run 0% science for now in case the upgrades are needed. If Bob ends up giving us enough time that they aren't, we can just use that gold to run 100% science later.
I'm less sold on the masonry->construction plan now; will have to see how things shape up regarding Bob. I'm thinking Orders from Heaven might be a better goal for more military oomph.
Agreed on the workers; in the process of moving them toward the conflict zone, to get us roads everywhere. We've already connected horses, so we can trade them to Commodore as soon as he gets a city. Was saving promos on the SoKs in case Bob throws something at us early, in which case it might be handy to do something else with them. Only the ones produced on turn 79 will need mobility promotions to get to Naggarond on time. Though I suppose the quicker they reach Naggarond, the quicker we can get rid of them and save on upkeep, so that's worth something.
Ilios got a big chunk of score this turn. The tech screen shows he has hunting. Seems like an odd choice to me. Maybe he's thinking of going FoL?
Doesn't have mysticism yet, though.
. Although I guess I shouldn't be, given the effect of collateral on every other FFH war that's been fought.
. We ought to be able to get there by the time we're switching traits again, anyway.
). Working an engineer, it looks like that'll give him a base of 22 hammers. Add in +50% for God King, +25% for a forge, +50% for the infernal palace, and +10% for nationhood, and we're up 52 hammers. He's got two more turns of golden age (add another 10 base hammers, bringing in an extra 23 hammers those two turns), and some amount of overflow from grimoire (let's estimate that at 22 hammers, half of his current non-military output). That's a total of 68 + 52N hammers produced in N turns. That means a full set of beasts + Mardero will be out at the end of turn 79. Assuming his stack moves 2 tiles per turn, he'll be able to hit Kwythellar on turn 84 (that's his turn 84, which comes after our turn 84), or Naggarond on turn 83.
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