Leader / Civ selection

[uberfish]

Just the existence of WC makes us an unattractive target to rush, and that's worth a lot in itself

[luddite]

The difference is you have to build Workers .

Darrell

P.S. I'm curious if Novice thinks he could have gotten The Great Lighthouse faster in PBEM17 with Louis XIV. A better question is whether he'd be in a better position going with Louis XIV (less forests, more Workers).

Since building TGL got him dogpiled, it seems like he would have been better off not building it at all

[novice]

P.S. I'm curious if Novice thinks he could have gotten The Great Lighthouse faster in PBEM17 with Louis XIV. A better question is whether he'd be in a better position going with Louis XIV (less forests, more Workers).

I think we might have managed the same date with Louis. Or maybe not. Definitely not faster.

At any rate the most important factor wasn't Sury, it was India. I think we chopped nine forests for that wonder. (And five more for Mids later.)

[luddite]

Yeah that map seems like it had a lot mire forests than average. Ideal for India.

Rego/sunrise in PB4 is a better example of where being industrious could have saved more hammers than expansive.

[scooter]

Yeah that map seems like it had a lot mire forests than average. Ideal for India.

Rego/sunrise in PB4 is a better example of where being industrious could have saved more hammers than expansive.

How so? They built an absolute ton of cities and every one of them needed a granary.

[SevenSpirits]

The granary is needed earlier and immediately doubles your food output. There's just no contest in the relative value of discounts.

If you have enough worker turns/forests that you can immediately chop out a granary in each new city then the granary discount can be reduced to only 30h saved. But then that requires significant additional upfront investment in workers...

[kjn]

Just looking at hammers saved is not that interesting, however. There are other considerations as well:

• Hammers gained - having the workers out earlier means you gain more hammers from improved tiles
  
• Hammer distribution - it is probably more valuable to save 150+ hammers in a single city with the Pyramids than it is to save a larger amount spread over lots of cities
  
• Hammers saved when - early saved hammers are more valuable than late saved hammers
  
• Wonders are often as much commerce constrained as hammer constrained
  

For a pure builder play-style, I think IND is likely as valuable as EXP. But EXP is more flexible - it can be leveraged into chop-rushing and other early military actions. And with the exception if Inca, no-one else can gain their UU as fast as we can.

So if we end up neighbours with the Spanish, we should probably consider choking them before they can choke us.

[luddite]

How so? They built an absolute ton of cities and every one of them needed a granary.

Eventually, yes. Also they all built a forge and a courthouse, eventually. People keep saying that expansive is immensely superior because the bonus kicks in earlier, but on the right map, industrious can kick in even earlier.

And like kjn mentioned, hammer distribution is important too. Especially if you need to build the great lighthouse in a coastal city with limited hammers, it's nice to get the bonus right where you need it. If this is a map with lots of coast line, it's going to be very difficult for us to get the great lighthouse before CFC does.

[nabaxo]

So if we end up neighbours with the Spanish, we should probably consider choking them before they can choke us.

Let's not forget that this is NOT an always war game. Diplomacy will more than likely be a very important asset in not getting rushed.

[kjn]

People keep saying that expansive is immensely superior because the bonus kicks in earlier, but on the right map, industrious can kick in even earlier.

And like kjn mentioned, hammer distribution is important too. Especially if you need to build the great lighthouse in a coastal city with limited hammers, it's nice to get the bonus right where you need it. If this is a map with lots of coast line, it's going to be very difficult for us to get the great lighthouse before CFC does.

Yes, but this is map- and play-style dependant. EXP is not. IND is most valuable for vertical growth. EXP gives some value there, but gives a lot of bonus to REX and also some to warmongering.

So in short:

Vertical growth: IND is very valuable, EXP carries some value
Horizontal growth: IND gives limited value (mainly GLH), but this is map-dependant; EXP is very valuable
Warmonger: EXP gives some value (get granary-fueled slave- and worker-fueled chop-production earlier), IND is worthless

Let's not forget that this is NOT an always war game. Diplomacy will more than likely be a very important asset in not getting rushed.

Agreed. That's why I said we should only consider it, and we can leverage it diplomatically if needed by showing that we can choke them before they can choke us.