My conclusion from scooter's sim is that early BW is quite costly (ignoring a possible coastal start with fishing/mining for the moment). This is because the start pretty much requires AH for the pig, which is easily the best tile available to us, and AH is expensive too. So I see a few options:
1) We defy the will of the gods and mine the pig, allowing us to skip AH. This would probably be combined with BW since we have mining and beakers to spend, and pottery is crap if we can't grow.
2) We avoid needing AH by going WB first and teching BW with a fishing/mining start, then whip our worker after growing on fish. And we can mine the pig if we want, or just chop. England/Rome/Carthage are all options with these techs; I think I like England > Carthage > Rome. EXP Cothons are not bad. IF this is decnent, which I have major doubts about.
3) Ignore mining/BW at the start. In this case I think I like Agri/Wheel the best, it's just ridiculously versatile when you are willing to ignore mining for a bit. We can settle in place and open AH-pottery directly.
I'm very unexcited by a hunting/mining or hunting/wheel start, because all those civs suck. (Khmer was OK, the rest are worse.) I think at this point I would vote for Sumeria. There is also the option of (gasp) not picking a civ based on starting techs. We should check out how expensive it is to choose Aztecs or HRE, as those civs do have real benefits attached. But I don't think they will be worth it.
Quote:Version 2 - hunting/wheel SIP tech AH. (pottery before BW version)
t11: worker onto pigs. ah in EOT. start settler in cap.
start teching fishing next for pottery
t15-32: pasture finished. road up to second city while we wait for pottery. settler completes and can move onto forest hill in 1T. settle city, camp deer, begin FP cottage. after settler grow cap to sz2 then worker.
T32 summary: 2 cities, 1 worker (2nd due in 4T), pigs/deer improved, road connection, pottery in, first cottage on shareable FP almost done.
Would it not be better to sub pottery for fishing in this plan? I've managed to reach this position by following your plan with an Agriculture/Wheel start in my simulations:
Additionally, the delay in researching Mining is due to researching Fishing for 4 turns. Fishing does not help immediately in the simulation, so it could be cut out from the starting plan.
SevenSpirits Wrote:My conclusion from scooter's sim is that early BW is quite costly (ignoring a possible coastal start with fishing/mining for the moment). This is because the start pretty much requires AH for the pig, which is easily the best tile available to us, and AH is expensive too. So I see a few options:
I would also conclude that Agriculture/Mining is not worth it, so we can ignore China which you really only ever take for the starting techs anyways.
SevenSpirits Wrote:1) We defy the will of the gods and mine the pig, allowing us to skip AH. This would probably be combined with BW since we have mining and beakers to spend, and pottery is crap if we can't grow.
2) We avoid needing AH by going WB first and teching BW with a fishing/mining start, then whip our worker after growing on fish. And we can mine the pig if we want, or just chop. England/Rome/Carthage are all options with these techs; I think I like England > Carthage > Rome. EXP Cothons are not bad. IF this is decnent, which I have major doubts about.
3) Ignore mining/BW at the start. In this case I think I like Agri/Wheel the best, it's just ridiculously versatile when you are willing to ignore mining for a bit. We can settle in place and open AH-pottery directly.
#1 - My gut says this will not go well. Though someone can definitely test it if they're able.
#2 - I would like to see this tested. I'm pretty skeptical of moving for fish, but it might just work.
#3 - From the official tests I did and the unofficial tests I did when I was screwing around, I did really get the sense that ignoring BW for awhile is for the best. It's less valuable than Hunting and Pottery IMO. So I'm coming around on something like Agri/Wheel and ignore BW.
SevenSpirits Wrote:I'm very unexcited by a hunting/mining or hunting/wheel start, because all those civs suck. (Khmer was OK, the rest are worse.) I think at this point I would vote for Sumeria. There is also the option of (gasp) not picking a civ based on starting techs. We should check out how expensive it is to choose Aztecs or HRE, as those civs do have real benefits attached. But I don't think they will be worth it.
So it's clear, I'm not advocating picking a civ based on starting techs, but rather weighting it into the decision appropriately. If we like two civs a lot and one has better starting techs, that should factor into the decision... But I don't think it's wise for us to take an otherwise valueless civ purely for the starting techs here. Sure I'd rather have the Aztec UB than the Sumerian UB, but does it outweigh the quicker start Sumeria will get? I kind of doubt it.
FYI I can and will do some more testing, but not until much later tonight as I won't be at a Civ-capable computer until then. I'll be around to comment on any sims that do get done.
Xenon Wrote:Additionally, the delay in researching Mining is due to researching Fishing for 4 turns. Fishing does not help immediately in the simulation, so it could be cut out from the starting plan.
In order to tech Pottery, you need Wheel and either Fishing or Agriculture. Since we do not need Agriculture for this start, any civ that does not start with Agriculture will want to tech Fishing pretty early to unlock Pottery. You could just start with Agriculture and eliminate that need, however that means you'll have to tech either Wheel or Hunting rather quickly. Also, teching Fishing may actually be of value - we could find something really useful right next to the fish and choose to settle there rather than deer.
Good comments though - that certainly shows why Agriculture/Wheel is quite good for SIP.
Sims we should still try
1) Setting 1NW with a couple different tech combinations
2) Seven's #2 suggestion of a fish move
3) An attempt at a non-terrible Aztec/HRE start.
4) An opening where we mine the pigs instead
scooter Wrote:Good comments though - that certainly shows why Agriculture/Wheel is quite good for SIP.
One note - I'd suggest Fishing/Wheel is a better and more flexible start than Agriculture/Wheel. We just need one of Agri/Fishing to unlock Pottery. Yes, Agriculture is more expensive, but Fishing is useful with the Fish available - if we see something amazing in the fog we could adjust our plans accordingly. Unfortunately, the only Fishing/Wheel civ is Japan which is very uninspiring.
I've tried several sims with a workboat opening, but so far it seems slower than the settle in place one. The biggest problem is either the lack of an extra hammer (due to the hill being a grassland instead of a plains one) or the lack of population for whipping when I had the city work a 1/2/0 (later 1/2/1, silk) tile instead.
Commodore Wrote: Japan is uninspiring because it has generally miserable starting techs!
What? Falsehoods. Samurai is not a very good UU, especially for a non-Aggressive player. The main problem is the first strikes get ignored by Knights anyways so what's the point? It doesn't suck, but it's thoroughly average, and the UB is not particularly useful since it comes so late. It's also a mace replacement, and maces aren't that great of a unit given the era they are in.
Here is my (pictorial) conclusion on the fish move plan:
It's much slower when it comes down to Pottery. On the other hand, we get pigs, fish and deer improved, alongside BW which should allow rapid expansion.
The general plan is as follows:
Quote:T0 - move settler 1S, build city, start working 1/2/0 tile immediately, change production to workboat.
T5 - borders expand, change tile to 1/2/1 (silk).
T10 - Queue warrior. Workboat built, move it onto fish. Change tile to pigs (or any other 2/1/0 tile, for growth)
T11 - build fishing boats, change tile worked to fish (5/0/3)
When the city reaches size 2 - change build to worker.
Tech path after BW is Hunting - Animal Husbandry - Wheel - Pottery
Whip out worker at first opportunity, queue another worker*, then use the first one to chop clockwise starting from the hill forest 1S of the city. As soon as the second one is complete, send him to join the first one in chopping. Start building a settler.
Once the workers have chopped down all forests adjacent to the city (ignore forest spread), move them onto the pigs (1NE, 1E - hopefully no forest spread happens 1NE). Pasture the pigs, and send the settler that will be built somewhere. Workers move 2 NW and start building a camp on the next turn.
*I seem to have interjected a warrior build after the first worker, in the hopes of getting another population to whip.
scooter Wrote:Sims we should still try
1) Setting 1NW with a couple different tech combinations
2) Seven's #2 suggestion of a fish move
3) An attempt at a non-terrible Aztec/HRE start.
4) An opening where we mine the pigs instead
I ordered those in rough order of priority.
I don't think mining the pigs is an option if we SIP -- there just would not be enough food.
1NW could be interesting, but a lot depends on what is in the fogged tiles to the west. So a proper sim is unlikely to be possible.
1) Setting 1NW with a couple different tech combinations
2) Seven's #2 suggestion of a fish move
3) An attempt at a non-terrible Aztec/HRE start.
4) An opening where we mine the pigs instead
I ordered those in rough order of priority.
Starting in 2 and a half hours I can try one of these. I would personally prefer to do 3); although, I can do 1) or 2) if nobody else can since scooter's priority list seems spot-on to me, with the caveat that there are a lot of fogged tiles for them.
Edit: Just saw SevenSpirit's post in the other thread about how bad it is starting with these...I doubt I can make a better plan, so I'll only try this a little, then try some other things.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
![[Image: qeiNJ.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/qeiNJ.jpg)
Japan is uninspiring because it has generally miserable starting techs!
![[Image: UT25q.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/UT25q.jpg)
